Quote from: Christopher Brady;1047260Dice removes player choice,  

Yeah, that's intentional. In fact it's their raison d'etre.

Next week: the wheel.

You don't want the possibility of an "all 8's" character, then just have a Shopkeeper Rule.  The PC you rolled up doesn't have a certain stat profile like at least one 13 and no stats below 5, then give them a name, profession and basic personality and hand them to the GM as an NPC extra then roll up another PC.

Or roll two stat lines and pick the best one.

The idea is, no matter what system you use, everyone uses the same one, so it's fair.  Someone rolls up The Rock, someone else Steve Buscemi.  Which would you want if you wanted a rogue?  Buscemi would make a much better Rogue/Thief, the Rock is going to attract way too much attention.  

System balance is a Fool's Errand, setting balance is what's important, that's why the GM makes the big bucks.

How about this?

Goblin Punch Career Path Fantasy.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxVHEMMjLlZ4Wnl3YnVtZnRHTzg/edit

Bam! You have a life history and background framework. Use your imagination and make it work!

Quote from: CRKrueger;1047314System balance is a Fool's Errand, setting balance is what's important, that's why the GM makes the big bucks.

Exactly this. And this is coming from someone who primarily uses point-buy systems.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1047314You don't want the possibility of an "all 8's" character, then just have a Shopkeeper Rule.  The PC you rolled up doesn't have a certain stat profile like at least one 13 and no stats below 5, then give them a name, profession and basic personality and hand them to the GM as an NPC extra then roll up another PC.

Or roll two stat lines and pick the best one.

Or Randomize Point Buy. That way you mathematically cannot get "unworkable character stats" AND you get randomized values so you're not bored or feel redundant.

In DnD 5e it's dirt easy: roll 1d8-1 per stat, add that value to base 8 stat, subtract the cost from your 27 points each time. Spend all your 27 points. Continue until you are out of points, or have nowhere else to skip spending them. Ta-dah, easy!

What was the first video in the series?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1047260Yes, because someone with a couple of 18s in the right stats they wanted, is going to have EXACTLY the same amount of fun as someone whose highest stat is an 8, maybe 9, and in Charisma, in an edition with no Bard class.  Somehow, magically, they're both going to have the same amount of fun!  Because the Dice said so.

Really?  You honestly believe this?  In all my 33 years of gaming and with the small number of people I've gamed with (I've worked it out to about 57, but I may be off as I've forgotten a couple of games, I'm sure of it) they answer is no, they're not.  They might be slightly frustrated, or mildly annoyed, or just bored rather than the assumed 'railing at the stars and vitriol' that people will immediately assume, -because extremes are so much more fun to strawman- but someone with a better outcome ruled, not by choice but by happenstance, tends to enjoy the game more because they are often in better shape to do more.  They get to carry the rest of the team, because they can do more in the game.

It's like people haven't ever played with a badly chanced character before.  I have and I've seen lots of other people do to, and even if you're having fun, being second fiddle...  Well, for me, it's boredom.  'Oh, Bob's got this again.  Don't need to pick up the dice.'  I made a character to play it, not sit back and watch someone else dominate the game.  I'm sure it's fun for some people (I'd be bored if the game became so easy because I had the best stats.  It's that way in video games for me.  I like easy games when I want to de-stress, but after that, I want hard mode!) but that's not for me.

Dice removes player choice, and somehow, this is better?  What is this crazy moon people talk?

Its very divergent viewpoint from the people I game with but if its what the people playing want its fine. Not something I'm into but I don't make the rules for everyone.

My players and I prefer all of the randomness to come after play starts. We like balanced characters at character creation as this creates equality of opportunity in play by providing equality of results before play begins. We also know that not everyone goes with this, and we are even willing to forgo it for one-shots, but we all stick with it for any long-term (multiple months or longer) gaming venture.

For me what's far more valuable would be "what's a standard scene in this campaign going to be like? What would be a fun thing to do in that scene? OK, who would do that sort of thing?"

Focus on the small scale stuff rather than the big picture. No fun having a character with a great backstory if all you do each session is say "I hit the orc with my sword" over and over.

Usually it's enough to come up with a simple character quirk and then let the rest come up in play. For example "posh dwarf." Two words, all you need to know for a fun character.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1047112Whoa hold on, full stop.  'Level playing field'?  Really?  Random Traveler Lifepath rolls can mean one Player gets a ship.  The second Player gets a missing leg.  This is fair?  This 'level playing field', which by the way means balanced?  And you know what?  You HAVE to use the results, because otherwise, why roll?  Why force this on your players if you're going to be a dick about it.

But in a made up back story (let's be nice, and keep it to a single paragraph, MAYBE half an 8x11 tops) doesn't have to be used, as long as you explain to your players (remember communicate!  This is a cooperative experience/game) what you want, the fact that a player is an exiled Elven Prince and the other is an escaped pirate cabin 'girl' don't really have any impact unless the DM wants it to.

It's beginning to sound like people just don't want to talk to players, but rather force their way onto them and screw the rest of the table.

It's beginning to sound like the 'mary sue' accusations are baseless excuses at this point.

1: Its a different definition of level playing field I think. Not one of characters being all one for one. But rather everyone has the same chances of getting good or bad results and making of it what they will. Similar to how say any RPG where you roll your stats. you are at the whims of the RMG gods. Its not my definition of a level playing field but at this point Im used to terms in gaming no longer having any meaning. "Rifts characters are created on a level playing field." :rolleyes:

2: Depends on the DM and especially the players. Some players expect or outright demand that whats in their background or on their character sheet MUST come into play. Ive lost track of people over on BGG bitching that because they took a PC who was a cleric that the DM MUST provide undead to turn. Or because they had their rangers foe race be Giants that there MUST be giants. ad nausium. Others are not. Its just a background that has potentially zero impact on gameplay. The example I gave prior of the gamma world PC who was an extradimensional being sent to earth had zero impact on the adventure other than those times the player roleplayed doing some scouting or research.

3: It does feel that way sometimes. There is a thread over on BGG with one nut adamant that punishing a (possibly disruptive or just not RPing the way the DM wants) player by doing bad stuff to their PC is the best way to make the player see the error of their ways. Yeah riiiiight.

3.5: Not really. Seen enough rants about this on fora and from DM recountings to know that yeah there really are players who make backgrounds that empower them and practically demand that power. Others are just rather in your face about their backgrounds, but not abusive about it.

As usual. Talk to the players for fucks sake! Explain the settings and lay down some guidelines or at least learn to say "NO" to something over the top and suggest more viable alternatives.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1047243"Yes and" and "No but" are another godawful idea.

Not really.

If someone comes to me with a character concept or backstory that doesnt work I will tell them "No. But if you change this and lower the power of this then it shouldn't be a problem."
Sometimes because the player simply misinterpreted what was allowed or got carried away. That could be as simple as telling someone No. Their 1st level PC can not start with a +3 sword. But a +1 sword might work. But it might have some... heh-heh... quirks.

The DM needs to learn to say "No" but also to work with the players where possible and suggest alternatives.

Example: One player wanted to start with effectively a mecha. I said "No you cant start with that. But there are equivalents in the setting. Have your PC start asking around and researching." same with a player who wanted to start with a spelljammer ship. What we worked out was that the player had a crashed spelljammer that was in dire need of repairs. Not to mention someone to man the helm. The PC was not any sort of caster and neither were any of the other party members. Made a great base od operations though.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1047260Yes, because someone with a couple of 18s in the right stats they wanted, is going to have EXACTLY the same amount of fun as someone whose highest stat is an 8, maybe 9, and in Charisma, in an edition with no Bard class.  Somehow, magically, they're both going to have the same amount of fun!  Because the Dice said so.

Partially agree there. But must point out that CHA is useful to non bards. One of my longest lived Magic Users best stat was charisma and it was a real life saver.

Quote from: Omega;1047376Partially agree there. But must point out that CHA is useful to non bards. One of my longest lived Magic Users best stat was charisma and it was a real life saver.

Mechanically speaking it tends to be the least used stat, often being relegated to the Henchmen Generator stat.  I'm happy you got to use it effectively.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1047265Yeah, that's intentional. In fact it's their raison d'etre.

You do realize that Cupcake would simply fudge the dice that removed too much choice, right?

Quote from: AsenRG;1047382You do realize that Cupcake would simply fudge the dice that removed too much choice, right?

The problem, Pumplin, that unlike you, my brain immediately assumes that each question is asked in good faith, so mine are too.  But unfortunately, you seem to already have made up your mind about me, so anything you say cannot be taken seriously, because preconceptions and prejudice colours it.

But whatever boats your float, sweetie.