Quote from: Ewan;1043906There's been a lively, if rather obscure, debate about Genesis 6:1

Some scholars think that the passage is metaphorical and the 'sons of God' referred to in the verse were human descendants of Seth, while the 'daughters of men' descended from Cain.

But I am inclined to agree with you. I think it refers to some kind of celestial beings.

The thing about angels, as you likely know, is that angel is the office and not the nature. An angel is a messenger. It could be a spirit or a human being (most often a spirit). When we talk about angels now, we almost always mean spirits.

Well, since the Fallen Angels are demons, too...obviously at least some demons would be human beings. Which has always been how it worked in my games, too:).

QuoteMy remarks on succubi, frozen semen, constructed bodies, etc have to do with something from a much\ more recent, extra biblical,  and definitely non-authoritative (even condemned)  source: The Malleus Maleficarum. IIRC. It's been a while. I'm not seriously suggesting that there's any truth in that strange notion. But it seems relevant to the game topic in question. It rather supports the Hasbro idea of genderless or sexless demons/devils who can take on sex as a guise.

Good catch, but I don't like quoting Malleus Malleficarum (a.k.a. the original MM:D) for anything! Basically, whatever is in it, might only be true in my games if it already was this way, or if other non-gaming non-pop sources corroborate.
In this case, it contradicts my reading on Genesis, so guess who wins?

Quote from: Thornhammer;1043942I have always assumed that the gender of such entities was covered succinctly by Ghostbusters.  The good one.

Winston: "I thought Gozer was a man."
Egon: "It's whatever it wants to be."

Not that I consider Ghostbusters to be an authoritative source on anything, it just covers the idea that these things appear as they want to appear - male, female, terrifying, alluring.  Whatever gets the job done.

Possibly. I don't like this interpretation to extend to all demons, though. Shapeshifting should be a special power of the shrewd ones, not a default ability that goes with the badge of office.
And let's be honest, as soon as we're quoting Ghostbusters, we're firmly in the realm of "what do you prefer". I'm pretty sure there are other movies where demons are shown as capable, sometimes more than capable, of procreative activities on their own;).

I recall some old 2e books about devils I picked up from the store once that I vaguely recall mentioning them essentially being formless creatures that only take whatever form is most useful or understandable for their purposes at the time.

Quote from: AsenRG;1043873Actually, the fallen angels should be an argument for them having genders:). They did take the daughters of the human kin, and propagated through them, after all.
Now, incubi and succubi (or rather, incubi/succubi) can be seen as argument against demons having genders, but I'd rather treat them as a special case of demon who needs humans for what it cannot get by itself;).

Technically, Incubi and Succubi are not original demons, they were fairy folks from the Isle of Man.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1044034Technically, Incubi and Succubi are not original demons, they were fairy folks from the Isle of Man.

Oh?

Do tell. This is interesting!

Quote from: Ewan;1044041Oh?

Do tell. This is interesting!

If I remember my high school research project right, the originated on the Isle of Man, along with the Leanan Sidhe, which is a single creature that feasted the creativity of artists shortening their lives but giving them inspiration.

The Succubi and Incubi were sexual predators, that came during the night, had relations with their victim.  They would suck the life out of their victims during it.  There's not much else that I remember.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1044042If I remember my high school research project right, the originated on the Isle of Man, along with the Leanan Sidhe, which is a single creature that feasted the creativity of artists shortening their lives but giving them inspiration.

The Succubi and Incubi were sexual predators, that came during the night, had relations with their victim.  They would suck the life out of their victims during it.  There's not much else that I remember.

I'm pretty sure the succubus and incubus come from Sumeria (which I guess is where demons and such originally were from in general). And I dunno about the Leanan Sidhe, but Sidhe is an Irish word, they have a different form of Gaelic in the Isle of Man, so it would likely be called something else.

Quote from: JeremyR;1044043I'm pretty sure the succubus and incubus come from Sumeria (which I guess is where demons and such originally were from in general). And I dunno about the Leanan Sidhe, but Sidhe is an Irish word, they have a different form of Gaelic in the Isle of Man, so it would likely be called something else.

True, although a cursory glance suggests that their folklore is sufficiently similar, so I'm sure they have a Sidhe analogue, albeit with a slightly different name. Succubi/Incubi I guess it depends on if you mean the name or the concept (the words are latinate, but the earliest conceptual analogue known comes from the Sumerian King's List).

Quote from: JeremyR;1044043I'm pretty sure the succubus and incubus come from Sumeria (which I guess is where demons and such originally were from in general). And I dunno about the Leanan Sidhe, but Sidhe is an Irish word, they have a different form of Gaelic in the Isle of Man, so it would likely be called something else.

Well, the reason we mention them is that originally, the succubus and incubus were different forms of the same demon;).

Different cultures, speaking different languages, might describe and name the same beings in different ways.

Quote from: Ewan;1044128Different cultures, speaking different languages, might describe and name the same beings in different ways.

And even different beings in the same way, for that matter;).
But I prefer to consider demons "different beings" if they're described differently, even if the name is the same. It's unlikely that they were working off a real model, after all:D!

Quote from: JeremyR;1044043I'm pretty sure the succubus and incubus come from Sumeria (which I guess is where demons and such originally were from in general). And I dunno about the Leanan Sidhe, but Sidhe is an Irish word, they have a different form of Gaelic in the Isle of Man, so it would likely be called something else.

They don't speak pure Gaelic, they mixed with the Celtic and I believe Scandinavian?  It's its own dialect that I believe is called...  Manx?  I'm doing this from memory, I don't have my notes, and every thing on the net about the Isle's folklore is all fanfiction or fantasy stories.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1044145They don't speak pure Gaelic, they mixed with the Celtic and I believe Scandinavian?  It's its own dialect that I believe is called...  Manx?  I'm doing this from memory, I don't have my notes, and every thing on the net about the Isle's folklore is all fanfiction or fantasy stories.

It is Manx.

A Leannan Sidhe is a cross between a muse and a vampire.

Quote from: HorusArisen;1044157It is Manx.

A Leanna Sidhe is a cross between a muse and a vampire.

Technically, Incubi and Succubi are also vampire like in nature.  I remember wondering if there was a link between them.

Quote from: AsenRG;1044144And even different beings in the same way, for that matter;).
But I prefer to consider demons "different beings" if they're described differently, even if the name is the same. It's unlikely that they were working off a real model, after all:D!

Not sure about that last bit ...

I agree that notable differences in descriptions strongly suggest we are talking about different types or kinds of supernatural being or monster.

But there are creatures from folklore that are pretty clearly related types, known by different names in different regions.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1044159Technically, Incubi and Succubi are also vampire like in nature.  I remember wondering if there was a link between them.

As I recall if the Leannan Sidhe manages to make to make her target fall in love with her she drains him as he goes through a mad rush of creativity. If she fails she's forced into his service...something like that anyway.