Quote from: True Black Raven;1042271I don't really care if someone wants to call me a bigot. I personally will not buy a game that I might play with children or grandchildren or other relatives or friends, that includes anything that is part of the LGBTPQ pedophile culture agenda. I am also not into the whole inclusive thing either. The people I invite into my life are those who are good, moral, decent people. Perverted child molesters, rapists and the rest of the deviant LGBTPQ crowd are not welcome. The is not a bad thing, that is common sense and protecting your family.

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Quote from: jeff37923;1042307Of course you have been claiming that this is erasure based upon you being bisexual, but when you meet a stranger do you introduce yourself by saying, "Hello, my name is Emperor Norton and I am bisexual"? Since if you don't, how do people you have never met know your sexual preferences to be bigoted against you as you claim?

My mind's eye vision of Emperor Norton is a fatter Adam Koebel, telling the strangers staring at him how Bi he is (and that his offspring's Trans!), while complaining that everyone is ignoring his wife.

But I could be wrong.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042275[ATTACH=CONFIG]2531[/ATTACH]

Didn't you complain earlier that your son didn't feel welcome?

Quote from: Larsdangly;1042289And there it is folks; a real, live, honest to goodness POS who dropped in to take a homophobic dump on our thread. Luckily you can see from the Join date that this is either a drive-by bigoting, or perhaps a regular member who was smart enough to change their name when typing in 'hate on' mode.

Or someone who wanted to bolster their sides arguments with a foolish poster. As long as we are speculating.

Quote from: EOTB;1042303True Black Raven is another sock puppet for Perilous Dreamer/Crimhthan the Great/Llauranela/TGM1975/ETC/ETC/ETC.  That post is a carbon copy of other like posts said person has posted for years on DF and elsewhere.

Hey, I like Crimthan/The Perilous Dreamer, and while his views on the LGBT community are admittedly very antiquated, even he wouldn't spew the kind of far right-wing Neo-Puritan venom that True Black Raven is currently dishing out.

I'm openly bisexual and I get along very well with The Perilous Dreamer, who I'm pretty sure knows about my particular orientation.

I'm sure that even a right-wing Puritan wannabe like Ras Algethi thinks that True Black Raven is either a troll or a lunatic (of course, knowing what I know about Ras, he's probably going to start supporting True Black Raven now just to spite me).

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1042315Hey, I like Crimthan/The Perilous Dreamer, and while his views on the LGBT community are admittedly very antiquated, even he wouldn't spew the kind of far right-wing Neo-Puritan venom that True Black Raven is currently dishing out.

I'm openly bisexual and I get along very well with The Perilous Dreamer, who I'm pretty sure knows about my particular orientation.

I'm sure that even a right-wing Puritan wannabe like Ras Algethi thinks that True Black Raven is either a troll or a lunatic (of course, knowing what I know about Ras, he's probably going to start supporting True Black Raven now just to spite me).

Had to know the anti-puritan bigotry would come out.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1042316Had to know the anti-puritan bigotry would come out.

I'm not sure what else to call True Black Raven's rhetoric.

The whole "all gays are pedophiles" was a common fallacy spewed by the Religious Right.

It was particularly commonly invoked during the 1950's and 1960's, back when homosexuality was still considered a mental illness by the medical community.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042310When people make jokes about gay dudes, or crude remarks about women, it doesn't actually require them knowing I'm bi.

OK, so lets apply that to representation in gaming material. If you just leave a NPCs sexual orientation blank, how do you know if that NPC is GBLT or not? That NPC could be anything, dependent solely on the decision of the GM. You wanted to make an issue about Jeff Dee's illustration of Morgan Ironwolf, can you tell me what her sexual orientation is just from the illustration?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042310Actually, I've found being a minority that is easily able to pass, that I don't see as much of the overt hatred, but I see a hell of a lot more of the insidious bullshit.

You know, if people don't wear their sexual preferences on their sleeve, then anyone can "easily pass" because sexual orientation is not a common subject of conversation. It sure as Hell doesn't come up up often at the game table if you are engaged in Actual Play of a game.

Quote from: jeff37923;1042318OK, so lets apply that to representation in gaming material. If you just leave a NPCs sexual orientation blank, how do you know if that NPC is GBLT or not? That NPC could be anything, dependent solely on the decision of the GM. You wanted to make an issue about Jeff Dee's illustration of Morgan Ironwolf, can you tell me what her sexual orientation is just from the illustration?




You know, if people don't wear their sexual preferences on their sleeve, then anyone can "easily pass" because sexual orientation is not a common subject of conversation. It sure as Hell doesn't come up up often at the game table if you are engaged in Actual Play of a game.

As much as I feel for Emperor Norton and the shit he's been put through in this thread, Jeff actually does have a point.

It's your game, if you want to make your character LGBT, then go for it! If not, that's cool too.

Quote from: S'mon;1042312My mind's eye vision of Emperor Norton is a fatter Adam Koebel, telling the strangers staring at him how Bi he is (and that his offspring's Trans!), while complaining that everyone is ignoring his wife.

But I could be wrong.

Actually, I brought it up here because it was fucking relevant to the discussion. It rarely comes up in my daily life. Hell, I doubt most of my coworkers even know I'm bi. I don't hide it but I don't bring it up unless it is relevant to the conversation (for instance, a discussion of inclusion in roleplaying games, or if I find a certain male celebrity attractive).

Of course I could make jokes about how I imagine you guys as neckbeards in MAGA hats on a street corner catcalling women, but I don't, because I don't think I'm arguing with caricatures but actual people.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042321Actually, I brought it up here because it was fucking relevant to the discussion. It rarely comes up in my daily life. Hell, I doubt most of my coworkers even know I'm bi. I don't hide it but I don't bring it up unless it is relevant to the conversation (for instance, a discussion of inclusion in roleplaying games, or if I find a certain male celebrity attractive).

Of course I could make jokes about how I imagine you guys as neckbeards in MAGA hats on a street corner catcalling women, but I don't, because I don't think I'm arguing with caricatures but actual people.

This guy gets it.

Quote from: jeff37923;1042318You know, if people don't wear their sexual preferences on their sleeve, then anyone can "easily pass" because sexual orientation is not a common subject of conversation. It sure as Hell doesn't come up up often at the game table if you are engaged in Actual Play of a game.

You mean no one you game with ever casually mentions their significant other? Ever?

And why exactly should people HAVE to be able to pass? "I'm OK with you being gay, but just don't ACT gay!"

Quote from: jeff37923;1042318OK, so lets apply that to representation in gaming material. If you just leave a NPCs sexual orientation blank, how do you know if that NPC is GBLT or not? That NPC could be anything, dependent solely on the decision of the GM. You wanted to make an issue about Jeff Dee's illustration of Morgan Ironwolf, can you tell me what her sexual orientation is just from the illustration?

So none of your NPCs have any significant others? Like, there aren't established connections between any of the NPCs in your towns? None of those old school modules ever mentioned married male and female couples? Or that two characters were together? None of them?

See this is the thing: If you were against representation of ANY sexuality in games, why would you only object when it was an LGBT couple mentioned.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042323You mean no one you game with ever casually mentions their significant other? Ever?

And why exactly should people HAVE to be able to pass?

I've always wondered this myself.

I think Jeff is trying to go after people who try to wave their orientation in people's faces and not casually mentioning one's significant other in a conversation. But you do have a point, Emperor Norton.

As for Ras Algethi, he's an asshole and you should ignore him. He advocates for cruel and unusual punishments (waterboarding, death penalty, life without parole) and I get the feeling he unironically pines for the old Massachusetts Bay Colony days of literal witch hunts and lynching people for celebrating Christmas and other "pagan" activities.

Despite the obvious fact that he is a wannabe Neo-Puritan, he claims to be agnostic as a poor attempt at deflecting criticism.

Fuck the Puritans, BTW. But to get back on topic, Jeff can be reasoned with and I can sort of understand what both of you are aiming at in your points.

Emperor Norton, trust me, I know how it feels to be an outnumbered liberal on this site.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042310When people make jokes about gay dudes, or crude remarks about women, it doesn't actually require them knowing I'm bi.

So making jokes is now off limits? Have you actually ever hung out with a group of dudes before? Crude jokes and hazing is rite of passage for most groups of friends.

I remember some dude we didn't know very well played a game with us and got super pissed about "gay jokes", started some righteous indignation bullshit speech. One of the gay players told him to STFU; never saw him again.