Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1042240In general, I've seen that a lot of women tend to avoid rough & tumble forums.

This. Men like to argue a lot more than women. Any forum with a lot of arguing will be frequented almost exclusively by men.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1042236Related question: Are there any women who frequent this site? Are any participating in this thread? I saw the posts advertising that several of us have DM'd groups that are 110% female for the last several hundred years, but are there any living women who hang out here and participate in these sorts of discussions?

I am certain that there are women who frequent this site and participate in threads, even this one. All of the women I know personally would not consider going online as a woman, but always adopt a male persona because of the harassment that is typical of most forums. But most forums where you can see the member list and the number of posts, why do you think that a huge number of accounts have 0-5 posts, I would bet that a huge proportion of those are women. A lot of accounts will show no login for years and yet when you look at a forums stats at the bottom of the page, it may show hundreds of visitors or more in a 24 hour period. I would bet that most of those are non posting members that don't bother to login, since they have seen the culture and knowing they are not going to post, why bother logging in. Those "inactive accounts" are the bulk of your forum traffic, IMO.

Any forum that is active has a steady trickle of new accounts that never post, why do they join? They are voting to tell you they like and use the useful stuff on your site, they just avoid the drama parts of the forum and don't post to avoid getting drawn into the drama. When a site prunes the member rolls as most sites do now and then, is there no push back? It is because they never try to login and they never know they have been deleted and it doesn't affect them being able to use the site as they already are.

Quote from: True Black Raven;1042252I am certain that there are women who frequent this site and participate in threads, even this one. All of the women I know personally would not consider going online as a woman, but always adopt a male persona because of the harassment that is typical of most forums. But most forums where you can see the member list and the number of posts, why do you think that a huge number of accounts have 0-5 posts, I would bet that a huge proportion of those are women. A lot of accounts will show no login for years and yet when you look at a forums stats at the bottom of the page, it may show hundreds of visitors or more in a 24 hour period. I would bet that most of those are non posting members that don't bother to login, since they have seen the culture and knowing they are not going to post, why bother logging in. Those "inactive accounts" are the bulk of your forum traffic, IMO.

That's a bold statement. Without their input, we really have no idea who is creating these accounts and why they do not log in. I'd bet a lot are attempted spambot accounts, that never got around to spamming.

Quote from: Haffrung;1042242This. Men like to argue a lot more than women. Any forum with a lot of arguing will be frequented almost exclusively by men.

Honestly, I'd say it is more that women tend to avoid places where they are massively outnumbered and will be told that their experience being a woman is bullshit.

If you think that women don't argue online, you'e never been on Facebook.

Also, I seem to remember there was at least one female poster back when I was here 3 years ago. Can't remember their user name, or even if they were a figment of my imagination.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042095You can all pretend that there is this magic barrier around the hobby that protected it from all the racism, sexism, and homophobia of the world, but as someone who lived through it as a sexual minority: That isn't the fucking case.

Maybe I am misreading the posts of others, but it seems more to me that people are saying the hobby doesn't require any special attention that the world is not already getting.

In addition, they are may also be saying that proportional representation (or increased representation) is irrelevant to the actual play or enjoyment of the game, and they don't appreciate being demonized for not caring about proportional representation.*

I also think most here appreciate feeling discomfort over being singled out as a minority (of some sort), and may have left groups that were uncomfortable for them. What they don't appreciate is being blamed for the misdeeds of others or that they should go out of their way to change their groups. They don't feel as if they need to prove their group fits some external set of criteria.

*I flagged my own point about proportional representation because I believe this really strikes close to the heart of disagreement. Do you really think gaming groups are bad if its members do not care about proportional representation?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042256women ...will be told that their experience being a woman is bullshit.

That sounds more like RPGnet.

Quote from: ArrozConLeche;1042221What sort of thing  has made you feel unwelcome  in the hobby?

I don't know man, how about being told that inclusion of people like me, my family, or my friends in official D&D product is RUINING D&D? And that anyone in the industry who includes any positive representation of LGBT people in their works is virtue signaling.

Happens less now, but back in the day the reason I stopped even going to public games was because of crude jokes about women and gay people. The thing is, that was just the background radiation of the time period, but I sure as hell didn't want to take it during my hobby time when I could just avoid it and play only with personal friends. And as I said upthread, I have still had completely bizarre experiences to this day like going to a hobby shop and watching the person behind the counter exclusively engage with me despite my wife being right there browsing games, and talking about them to. She literally joined the conversation and he still didn't address anything her direction.

Almost every woman I've ever played with has had stories of issues with the hobby, and usually that is the reason they've pulled back to only home games or online games with people they already know.

I just think it is absurd that we can hear about something so often, and people still refuse to believe that there is any issue, or has been any issue, ever.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042261Almost every woman I've ever played with has had stories of issues with the hobby, and usually that is the reason they've pulled back to only home games or online games with people they already know.

A lot of socially inept people play RPGs, and the socially inept (and those who don't have a home to play in) make up a disproportionate number of participants in public games. Which is why almost every white male I've ever played RPGs with plays exclusively in home games with people they already know. Most of us don't like engaging in our hobbies with socially inept strangers.

Quote from: Lynn;1042258Maybe I am misreading the posts of others, but it seems more to me that people are saying the hobby doesn't require any special attention that the world is not already getting.

In addition, they are may also be saying that proportional representation (or increased representation) is irrelevant to the actual play or enjoyment of the game, and they don't appreciate being demonized for not caring about proportional representation.*

I also think most here appreciate feeling discomfort over being singled out as a minority (of some sort), and may have left groups that were uncomfortable for them. What they don't appreciate is being blamed for the misdeeds of others or that they should go out of their way to change their groups. They don't feel as if they need to prove their group fits some external set of criteria.

*I flagged my own point about proportional representation because I believe this really strikes close to the heart of disagreement. Do you really think gaming groups are bad if its members do not care about proportional representation?

It's not about caring about proportional representation. I think it is bad if a group gets upset about representation, because according to them everything is already perfect. I think it is bad if someone gets upset because a positive trans character is part of an adventure series. I think it is bad if someone gets upset because a Chaotic Good Genderfluid God gives a blessing that let's someone switch genders.

They say "GO MAKE YOUR OWN GAMES THEN" but when these people are making the games they want to make, they get accused of virtue signalling, of pandering. As if the things they are doing don't match the beliefs they have.

Because the truth is: If you take away the idea that what these people are doing is false, what argument do you have left: That you don't want these things in their game. And no one WANTS to be labeled as a bigot. Even bigots. So they have to invent reasons that THEY aren't bigots, even though they don't like this stuff.

And some people, it isn't even about that. It is about having an adversary. This entire site is adversarial. A lot of people are here that left TBP, a place that IS so tumblr that it cracks me up (I've actually have been suspended there for not falling in lockstep over agreement on lynchmobbing someone, I think it was Zak S, who I said wasn't sexist, even if he was an asshole (he still probably remembers me calling him an asshole, guy never forgets anything, probably has me on a list somewhere with all the "liars")), and the truth is that some people get so worked up into the "war" that they have to automatically side on the other side of whatever the opposition believes. You can see this with Pundit, who was a big defender of 5e when it came out, but now that it is accepted over at TBP, he has to be angry about something, so the SJW PANDERING has to be the thing, cause he still likes it mechanically.

The thing is, if someone is describing something you aren't doing, then they AREN'T TALKING ABOUT YOU! I never blamed the whole site for this. I've always said it was a minority that freaks out. What I did say is that when you have this incredibly vocal minority, you can't be surprised that people think you are alt-right.

And then like clockwork people had to come out and defend their right to call things SJW bullshit and virtue signalling. Because they can't argue with the actual inclusion itself without actually appearing as bigots, so they have to attack the motive.

Quote from: Haffrung;1042263A lot of socially inept people play RPGs, and the socially inept (and those who don't have a home to play in) make up a disproportionate number of participants in public games. Which is why almost every white male I've ever played RPGs with plays exclusively in home games with people they already know. Most of us don't like engaging in our hobbies with socially inept strangers.

So what what you are saying is "The hobby is already inclusive! Except the part of the hobby that is most visible and is where a large amount of people would enter the hobby from." Also, as a dude, a socially inept person will bother me, but rarely target me. Yeah, I want to avoid them, but they usually don't actively do anything towards me. I've seen the difference between how men and women get addressed by people who you describe as "socially inept". Women tend to get targeted either because the "socially inept" person is a sexist gatekeeper, or they go the opposite direction and are practically slobbering over her.

So yes, they make me want to avoid the games (and not mention that I'm bi), but they don't do anything specifically creepy or shitty to me.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1042253That's a bold statement. Without their input, we really have no idea who is creating these accounts and why they do not log in. I'd bet a lot are attempted spambot accounts, that never got around to spamming.

One of the places that I mostly lurk (in 14 years I have between 50-100 posts) there are 4240 accounts with zero posts and 2595 accounts with between 1-5 posts. I am fascinated if you think that there are that many spambot accounts and none of them ever got around to doing any spamming. Who has ever seen or heard of a spambot account that did not spam? IMO you would lose that bet.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042264It's SNIP  motive.

I don't really care if someone wants to call me a bigot. I personally will not buy a game that I might play with children or grandchildren or other relatives or friends, that includes anything that is part of the LGBTPQ pedophile culture agenda. I am also not into the whole inclusive thing either. The people I invite into my life are those who are good, moral, decent people. Perverted child molesters, rapists and the rest of the deviant LGBTPQ crowd are not welcome. The is not a bad thing, that is common sense and protecting your family.

Quote from: Lynn;1042258Maybe I am misreading the posts of others, but it seems more to me that people are saying the hobby doesn't require any special attention that the world is not already getting.

In addition, they are may also be saying that proportional representation (or increased representation) is irrelevant to the actual play or enjoyment of the game, and they don't appreciate being demonized for not caring about proportional representation.*

I also think most here appreciate feeling discomfort over being singled out as a minority (of some sort), and may have left groups that were uncomfortable for them. What they don't appreciate is being blamed for the misdeeds of others or that they should go out of their way to change their groups. They don't feel as if they need to prove their group fits some external set of criteria.

*I flagged my own point about proportional representation because I believe this really strikes close to the heart of disagreement. Do you really think gaming groups are bad if its members do not care about proportional representation?

There you go bringing logic to the fight.  What were you thinking?

Quote from: True Black Raven;1042271I don't really care if someone wants to call me a bigot. I personally will not buy a game that I might play with children or grandchildren or other relatives or friends, that includes anything that is part of the LGBTPQ pedophile culture agenda. I am also not into the whole inclusive thing either. The people I invite into my life are those who are good, moral, decent people. Perverted child molesters, rapists and the rest of the deviant LGBTPQ crowd are not welcome. The is not a bad thing, that is common sense and protecting your family.

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A group of people I hadn't met before came round to play White Star RPG at my flat yesterday. Two of them are attractive young women.  They told me that on the way here, one of the women had been sexually harrassed on the London Underground; some guy had put his arms around her.

Compared to everyday life, I think RPGs are pretty much a Safe Space for women.  At least for a woman in London or other European cities - maybe US/Cam/Aus/NZ are better. I'm guessing that the kind of place where people freak out about "micro-aggressions" must be a lot safer, unless that's a form of displacement.