Quote from: Omega;1042114Great. Thanks for pointing that out. Oddly it doesnt seem to have carried over to 2e? As noted there wasnt a peep of that in the CBoE. Nor 2e L&L. (Which does not have any elven or other D&D fantasy gods listed).

   2E put the demihuman and humanoid deities into DMGR4 Monster Mythology, which states the following

Quote from: DMGR4 Monster Mythology, p. 18, "Gods of the Elves"Elven deities are unusual in being able to manifest as beings of either sex, and having distinctly androgynous qualities. They are, however, almost always represented in art and myth as having a definitely preferred gender form; thus, Hanali and Sehanine almost always choose female form while Labelas is usually male. Corellon, while being male, is always represented as having a strikingly androgynous beauty (as befits a Creator [sic], incorporating male and female principles).

Quote from: DMGR4 Monster Mythology, p. 21, "Corellon Larethian"Corellon Larethian is the embodiment of the highest ideals of elvenkind. "He" is the Creator of the elven race; as with all the elven gods, he can assume the form of either sex, but usually appears as a male, and is usually revered in this form.

Ok, because I'm sure that people are just going to assume this is a troll question, let me assure you this is a legitimate question, because if there are any I'd love to check their work out:

Are there any female OSR designers?

I would agree with the assertion that the tabletop rpg hobby has been traditionally been more inclusive than its surrounding culture. I've definitely met some bigots in this hobby (IRL and online), but I've met more people who were accepting of the atypical inside the hobby than out in the past. The majority of the problem people were just the ones with no social skills or hygiene standards.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042130Ok, because I'm sure that people are just going to assume this is a troll question, let me assure you this is a legitimate question, because if there are any I'd love to check their work out:

Are there any female OSR designers?

I'm not sure if there are or not. I would be interested in seeing a woman's take on the OSR, and I'm not even an SJW.

And ignore Ras Algethi, he's just some lame /pol/ reject who gets butthurt when anyone expresses an opinion that is even slightly to the Left of Jack Chick or Mussolini.

Me and him should just fuck and get it over with, it may help with his impotent rage a bit.

(You might enjoy it, Ras. You are clearly a homophobe and you know what they say about homophobes!)

I am so sorry that people are so hostile to you. You're just asking a few legitimate questions, and they're acting like RPG.net is attacking or something.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042097I guarantee that 99% of people shown that image would assume she isn't wearing pants.

And 99% of people can't be wrong?

https://comments.deviantart.com/1/322587897/2797391250

Quote from: mightybrain;1042137And 99% of people can't be wrong?

https://comments.deviantart.com/1/322587897/2797391250

To be fair, even the artist wasn't entirely sure. "Yes, I think so."

And even in that case, I will revise my statement: Why is she drawn like she isn't wearing pants?

The question about the existence of female OSR designers is a good one. And I'd extend it by asking what fraction are (so the issue isn't 'disproven' when someone digs up a singular example). The reason it is the right question is that it cuts through all the posturing and ad hominem arguments by looking for a single fact that we should suspect would be quite telling.

If the answer is, as I suspect, something less than 10 %, then we need to figure out why women won't participate in the OSR deeply enough to show up as designers The suggestion above that it has something to do with 'ability' is absurd; these games are widely available, basically free, and it is very well established that any moron can figure them out.

The suggestion that it is 'interest' just begs the question: why would women not be interested in the OSR? Plenty play 5E, computer RPGs and generally participate in 'nerd' culture. Why would they not find their way into our community with enough involvement to show up as designers?

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I am sure one factor is that a small but vocal slice of the online OSR community is palpably hostile to any manifestation of diversity. This sort of attitude is sprinkled across every page of this long thread, and crops up in many other threads. Basically, we have ass holes in our midst, they shoot their mouths off a lot, and I can't think of a good reason why women would hang around to read the sneering crap these guys spew.

One of the most valuable of the original D&D modules was designed by Jean Wells. It's an interesting story. It's particularly valuable now because it was the only one to be recalled; ostensibly for its sexist content.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1042141we need to figure out why women won't participate in the OSR deeply enough to show up as designers

Could it be that they don't want to become a target of the extreme left.

Quote from: mightybrain;1042144Could it be that they don't want to become a target of the extreme left.

That is a surreal suggestion.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042112But my claim didn't come first, that was a response to another poster, who was saying that the RPG hobby was already inclusive and had always been. Why not ask him to prove his case, as his claim came first? If you are so interested in people backing up their arguments with peer reviewed research, why not question Jeff about it?

Because he knows that I would answer honestly and not dance around the subject.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1042145That is a surreal suggestion.

I literally have no idea how to even respond to it.

Quote from: mightybrain;1042142One of the most valuable of the original D&D modules was designed by Jean Wells. It's an interesting story. It's particularly valuable now because it was the only one to be recalled; ostensibly for its sexist content.

This article seems to go into detail about it, but I have no idea as to its accuracy. Seems like it was recalled due to a few pictures putting dirty thoughts in one of the boss's heads more than any sexist content in the module itself.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1042141I'm not sure what the answer is, but I am sure one factor is that a small but vocal slice of the online OSR community is palpably hostile to any manifestation of diversity. This sort of attitude is sprinkled across every page of this long thread, and crops up in many other threads. Basically, we have ass holes in our midst, they shoot their mouths off a lot, and I can't think of a good reason why women would hang around to read the sneering crap these guys spew.

I would posit that this is part of it. I would posit another part is that there aren't as many women who have a nostalgia for the "good ole days" of TSR D&D, because for them they weren't the good ole days.

I can't prove that of course. But the idea that the seeming complete lack of women designing in the OSR does seem like something a little hard to just push under the rug as saying nothing.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1042133I am so sorry that people are so hostile to you. You're just asking a few legitimate questions, and they're acting like RPG.net is attacking or something.

No, he's creating outlandish scenarios and asking ridiculous questions to PROVE how oppressed he, and everyone who isn't a straight white male, is, by a game about elves. You're even worse because you don't even attempt to make an argument, just say stupid bullshit that adds nothing to the conversation.

This thread has seemed to run its course as it's pretty obvious any reasonable discussion about the subject went out the window...as much as I dislike John Kim*, at least he has a position and defends it honestly.

EDIT: *His political views. He actually seems like a decent guy, and I've used his rpg resources for a long time.