Quote from: mightybrain;1042096According to the artist she is wearing pants. But I guess we see what we want to see.

Anybody remember the Naussica pants thing?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042043... Why does her armor have nipples? Where is her waist? Why is she not wearing pants?

Like, I'm not even asking these questions saying it is sexist, I'm just saying holy hell what is that.

You want to say it's sexist, but you know passive-aggressive.

Anyway check out these sexist nipples!
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Quote from: Ras Algethi;1042099I went with my girlfriend to a crafts store as she was looking for some vinyl. They all but exclusively talked to her. DOWN WITH THE MATRIARCHY!

Were you actively browsing things as well, or were you standing to the side? Did you attempt to engage in the conversation?

And actually i would say that there are hobbies that even more one sided towards women that have the same problem in the opposite direction. Men definitely get judged harshly for wanting to participate in a traditionally female hobbies and jobs, and that does suck and is a problem. Men shouldn't be treated as less of a man because they want to knit, or because they are a nurse. (Since my mother worked in the nursing field, I have known quite a few male nurses. They do get shit for it. A lot. And that is shitty).

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042102Curiosity: Why is my claim that the RPG hobby was not different from the rest of society need more proof than your claim that it was? What exactly do you have to back up your claims other than anecdotes: The same evidence I have.

You keep claiming that the RPG Hobby was already inclusive. Why do you require me to have proof, but you don't require any?

For the simple reason that your claim came first.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042060I've been playing TTRPGs for a long, long time. Not as long as some people here, but since the 80s. The idea that gaming was already oh so inclusive for all these years is frankly bullshit. Some home games, sure. Every persons home game has been its own experience, and always will be. Maybe your home game has always been inclusive, and if that is the case CONGRATULATIONS THAT IS FUCKING GREAT.

But to act like the entire industry has always been super inclusive, to act like it was some special part of society that somehow managed to figure shit out before everyone else did, fucking bull, shit.

Hell, society hasn't even figured that shit out yet. I live in a country that elected a man president who literally talked about grabbing women by the pussy without consent. Your belief that roleplayers somehow have always been more enlightened is beyond absurd.

I'd just like you to back up your assertation, without appealing to vague generalities or side-topics. Then we can proceed, and I'd be happy to respond to your follow up questions.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042107Were you actively browsing things as well, or were you standing to the side? Did you attempt to engage in the conversation?

I wanted to be treated as human being, is that to much to ask?


/sarcasamoff

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042066Or, or maybe, let's just go with the actual argument I was making: The RPG field is not some magically immune part of society that is completely different from the rest of the world, and I was pointing out that the rest of the world isn't that great.

But sure man. I came to this site, specifically to bitch at people because Trump is president, despite him having been president now for a year and a half, and only just mentioned him for the first time probably several dozen posts in as an example of society being kind of fucked on the inclusitivity thing, and not because I was about to start a new campaign for the first time in a long while and wanted to talk about D&D, and instead get met with the same old same old bullshit about how bad it is that someone got LGBT in their elf-games.

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Quote from: Ratman_tf;1042109For the simple reason that your claim came first.



I'd just like you to back up your assertation, without appealing to vague generalities or side-topics. Then we can proceed, and I'd be happy to respond to your follow up questions.

But my claim didn't come first, that was a response to another poster, who was saying that the RPG hobby was already inclusive and had always been. Why not ask him to prove his case, as his claim came first? If you are so interested in people backing up their arguments with peer reviewed research, why not question Jeff about it?

Also, my argument is that if you come on forums to bitch about inclusivity being present in D&D, you are a bigot. Which doesn't actually rely on the argument that the hobby itself is discriminatory. On the other hand "The reason we are pissed is because it was already inclusive" is an argument that relies on the idea that the hobby itself was never discriminatory. His argument hinges entirely on his assertion. Mine does not.

Quote from: Gabriel2;1041969Deities and Demigods 1980, page 106
"Corellon is alternately male and female, both or neither."

Great. Thanks for pointing that out. Oddly it doesnt seem to have carried over to 2e? As noted there wasnt a peep of that in the CBoE. Nor 2e L&L. (Which does not have any elven or other D&D fantasy gods listed). What about 3e?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042112But my claim didn't come first, that was a response to another poster, who was saying that the RPG hobby was already inclusive and had always been. Why not ask him to prove his case, as his claim came first? If you are so interested in people backing up their arguments with peer reviewed research, why not question Jeff about it?

Because I do not disagree with his post. I'm interested if you have evidence to back up your response, or if it's just an opinion.

Is Jimmy from the "Trapped in the Birdcage" game on D&D's twitch actually gay?  Planescape was always slightly more LGBTQ friendly than bog standard D&D but it never really over emphasized sexuality either (hard not to when trying to talk about Aphrodite's realm).  Holly has made some downright hilarious LGBTQ situations for the player (I liked him trying to pick up Cyphers at the Gymnasium).

Is there any evidence that individual tables can't come up with whatever they think is cool?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042078Ok, why are there so few women designers. Hell, why are there so few designers who aren't white. I mean yes, it takes time for things to change, but if it was so inclusive from all the way back in the 70s, then why are there still so few NOW.

Why are there so few LGBT designers. Literally I can think of 1 (Steve Kenson).

You mean to tell me that tabletop rpgs were always super inclusive, all the way back to the 70s, but if that was so, why is it all the women, ethic, or sexual minorities involved in it never wanted to be designers? Why are they predominately designed by straight white men, with a few exceptions like Laura Hickman, Shanna Germain, Steve Kenson, Mike Pondsmith, etc.

That's a good question. Why is the rpg scene dominated by straight, white men?  Except for all of the designers who aren't. Naturally. Especially in this day and age of pdfs and crowd sourcing?

Is it a lack of desire? Ability?

Or is that making your own original product requires hard work and it's just easier to inject yourself into someone else's work?

Quote from: Krimson;1042029Someone had to hire her.

She wasnt hired so much as handed the reigns of the company in a forced takeover which she for a while at least did actually pull out of the red. But then started using the company to line her own pockets rather than help the company. And one of the Blumes was driving things deeper into the hole.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;1042117That's a good question. Why is the rpg scene dominated by straight, white men?  Except for all of the designers who aren't. Naturally. Especially in this day and age of pdfs and crowd sourcing?

Is it a lack of desire? Ability?

Or is that making your own original product requires hard work and it's just easier to inject yourself into someone else's work?

The number has increased, but if you think that the amount is anywhere near proportional that is just laughable

Also, here is a little hint: People who get into designing something, tend to do it because they've been into the hobby for a while. Most people who are into the hobby for a long time, are straight white men. Yes, other people were in the hobby too (I have been in the hobby for years myself, but in my experience, I was the exception. And at least I had the advantage of being a bisexual white man, meaning it was easy for me to pass). But the largest percent, even proportionally, where straight white men.

My own personal home groups have been very diverse, because I tended to recruit from friends, not just existing RPG players. And many times women who joined our games were happy because they'd tried D&D before because it sounded fun and had really bad experiences.

So the reason there aren't as many now: They didn't feel welcome in the hobby 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 30 years ago. One person in one of the online games I'm playing with mentioned how she doesn't play in person now, and sticks to people from livejournal style RP groups because of the experiences she has had LATELY. And when you don't feel welcome just playing the game, you sure as hell don't design a game.

Yeah, its all fucking anecdotal. But when you hear it over, and over, and fucking over again, Maybe, just maybe, they aren't all lying.

Those evil cisgendered white men.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042078Ok, why are there so few women designers. Hell, why are there so few designers who aren't white. I mean yes, it takes time for things to change, but if it was so inclusive from all the way back in the 70s, then why are there still so few NOW.

Why are there so few LGBT designers. Literally I can think of 1 (Steve Kenson).

You mean to tell me that tabletop rpgs were always super inclusive, all the way back to the 70s, but if that was so, why is it all the women, ethic, or sexual minorities involved in it never wanted to be designers? Why are they predominately designed by straight white men, with a few exceptions like Laura Hickman, Shanna Germain, Steve Kenson, Mike Pondsmith, etc.

Well first you have to establish that what you say is true. Maybe it is for D&D, but I really doubt you surveyed all RPG material including those in different languages. Nor did you confirm that potentially female authors weren't using Pen Names.

Then if you look at overall societal trends, the tools that contribute to good RPG design weren't as accessible to certain groups and those barriers had nothing to do with the RPG hobby as a whole.    

But if you are really asking, "Why does WotC not hire more X?", then I can't answer that because I don't like that publisher or what they put out. Excluding Pathfinder (when playing not GMing), my favorite version of D&D is the RC version of BECMI (beating out 3.5).