Quote from: Brad;1042081This is a joke post meant to satirize the entire position, right?

It's a serious question. If all these people were always welcomed with open arms, and never faced any discrimination in the hobby or industry, why did so few of them ever go on to design games?

People in this thread are literally saying that the entire RPG Industry has somehow magically avoided discrimination of any kind, despite sexism, racism, and homophobia existing throughout society. That is a statement so absurd that I can't even imagine how anyone would believe it.

Other than the standard SJW assumption that anyone who doesn't agree with them is therefore a bad person, they also make the assumption that there is an opposing force to whatever they believe in - therefore if you are a pro inclusive game designer, there must be those who are your rabid opposites that are applying an opposing force. Otherwise, why hasn't the entire industry moved in the SJW direction?

Quote from: jeff37923;1042057So, you are just trolling here. Good to know. I can stop trying to act like you are intellectually honest then.

Wish I had actually taken the implied advice here.

I appreciate how any question that you don't have an answer for you just accuse me of trolling. And you accuse me of intellectual dishonesty. :rolleyes:

If the hobby has always been completely 100% welcoming to everyone, why do so few people go on to want to design their own games outside of a certain subset?

Quote from: Lynn;1042086Other than the standard SJW assumption that anyone who doesn't agree with them is therefore a bad person, they also make the assumption that there is an opposing force to whatever they believe in - therefore if you are a pro inclusive game designer, there must be those who are your rabid opposites that are applying an opposing force. Otherwise, why hasn't the entire industry moved in the SJW direction?

Here is the other question though: If everyone was already so inclusive, why do pro inclusive game designers bother anyone?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042078Ok, why are there so few women designers. Hell, why are there so few designers who aren't white. I mean yes, it takes time for things to change, but if it was so inclusive from all the way back in the 70s, then why are there still so few NOW.

Why are there so few LGBT designers. Literally I can think of 1 (Steve Kenson).

You mean to tell me that tabletop rpgs were always super inclusive, all the way back to the 70s, but if that was so, why is it all the women, ethic, or sexual minorities involved in it never wanted to be designers? Why are they predominately designed by straight white men, with a few exceptions like Laura Hickman, Shanna Germain, Steve Kenson, Mike Pondsmith, etc.

Dancing it is. It seems you are using demographics as evidence. If these groups of people were not/are not included in the hobby, (except for a few cases you mention) then why? What specifically happened to exclude them?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042085It's a serious question. If all these people were always welcomed with open arms, and never faced any discrimination in the hobby or industry, why did so few of them ever go on to design games?

People in this thread are literally saying that the entire RPG Industry has somehow magically avoided discrimination of any kind, despite sexism, racism, and homophobia existing throughout society. That is a statement so absurd that I can't even imagine how anyone would believe it.

No one is literally saying that. Hyperbole will not help you make your point. Your continued attempts to mischaracterize responses are getting tiresome.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042089Here is the other question though: If everyone was already so inclusive, why do pro inclusive game designers bother anyone?

They were targeting their games at the existing market as they perceived it. There is nothing inclusive or non-inclusive about that.

As these games are games of the imagination, there are games that lend themselves to certain types of play based on their theme. But those themed game designs target their existing user base.

Inclusivity is a recent, progressive social and political concept which not only answers a question nobody was previously asking, but assumes that all others agree that it is question that needed to be asked, and not to ask it makes you a bad person. That is a disagreeable characterization.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1042092Dancing it is. It seems you are using demographics as evidence. If these groups of people were not/are not included in the hobby, (except for a few cases you mention) then why? What specifically happened to exclude them?

You know, there is a reason I started playing exclusively with people who I recruited into the hobby: Almost every public game I went to was gross. From the way they talked, it was pretty clear that if they knew I was bi, they would have not approved. And I felt bad for people who couldn't pass as something other than what they are who had to deal with them.

Hell, less than a year ago I went to a hobby shop with my wife with me, and the person manning the counter exclusively talked to me, despite the fact that we were both standing there, and both looking at books on the shelves. Even when she joined the conversation about one of the games we were talking about, he still directed every comment towards me.

You can all pretend that there is this magic barrier around the hobby that protected it from all the racism, sexism, and homophobia of the world, but as someone who lived through it as a sexual minority: That isn't the fucking case.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042043Why is she not wearing pants?

According to the artist she is wearing pants. But I guess we see what we want to see.

Quote from: mightybrain;1042096According to the artist she is wearing pants. But I guess we see what we want to see.

1. You can literally see her kneecap.
2. The lines drawn seem to indicate muscle, not cloth.

I guarantee that 99% of people shown that image would assume she isn't wearing pants.

(And again, I'm not commenting on whether it is sexist or not, only that holy hell that art is... something)

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042095You know, there is a reason I started playing exclusively with people who I recruited into the hobby: Almost every public game I went to was gross. From the way they talked, it was pretty clear that if they knew I was bi, they would have not approved. And I felt bad for people who couldn't pass as something other than what they are who had to deal with them.

Hell, less than a year ago I went to a hobby shop with my wife with me, and the person manning the counter exclusively talked to me, despite the fact that we were both standing there, and both looking at books on the shelves. Even when she joined the conversation about one of the games we were talking about, he still directed every comment towards me.

I appreciate your personal experiences. Do you have any evidence that the rest of the hobby was similar, on a scale that affected the demographics of the hobby? Specific examples please.

QuoteYou can all pretend that there is this magic barrier around the hobby that protected it from all the racism, sexism, and homophobia of the world, but as someone who lived through it as a sexual minority: That isn't the fucking case.

No one is saying that. I have tried to refrain from putting words in your mouth, why do you insist on putting yours into mine?

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042095You know, there is a reason I started playing exclusively with people who I recruited into the hobby: Almost every public game I went to was gross. From the way they talked, it was pretty clear that if they knew I was bi, they would have not approved. And I felt bad for people who couldn't pass as something other than what they are who had to deal with them.

Hell, less than a year ago I went to a hobby shop with my wife with me, and the person manning the counter exclusively talked to me, despite the fact that we were both standing there, and both looking at books on the shelves. Even when she joined the conversation about one of the games we were talking about, he still directed every comment towards me.

You can all pretend that there is this magic barrier around the hobby that protected it from all the racism, sexism, and homophobia of the world, but as someone who lived through it as a sexual minority: That isn't the fucking case.

I went with my girlfriend to a crafts store as she was looking for some vinyl. They all but exclusively talked to her. DOWN WITH THE MATRIARCHY!

Quote from: Emperor Norton;1042078Ok, why are there so few women designers. Hell, why are there so few designers who aren't white. I mean yes, it takes time for things to change, but if it was so inclusive from all the way back in the 70s, then why are there still so few NOW.

Why are there so few LGBT designers. Literally I can think of 1 (Steve Kenson).

You mean to tell me that tabletop rpgs were always super inclusive, all the way back to the 70s, but if that was so, why is it all the women, ethic, or sexual minorities involved in it never wanted to be designers? Why are they predominately designed by straight white men, with a few exceptions like Laura Hickman, Shanna Germain, Steve Kenson, Mike Pondsmith, etc.

What's up with the lack of male teachers for pre-schools? DOWN WITH THE MATRIARCHY.

Or do you selectively apply demographics to a group's make-up?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1042098I appreciate your personal experiences. Do you have any evidence that the rest of the hobby was similar, on a scale that affected the demographics of the hobby? Specific examples please.



No one is saying that. I have tried to refrain from putting words in your mouth, why do you insist on putting yours into mine?

Curiosity: Why is my claim that the RPG hobby was not different from the rest of society need more proof than your claim that it was? What exactly do you have to back up your claims other than anecdotes: The same evidence I have.

You keep claiming that the RPG Hobby was already inclusive. Why do you require me to have proof, but you don't require any?