Quote from: Brand55;1041377It depends. SPF has stepped back from working with Pinnacle (the company who makes Savage Worlds and the largest number of settings for that system) on Rifts, but Freedom Squadron is being done by a different company. Pinnacle didn't publicly denounce him and Evil Beagle Games is still a Savage Worlds licensee, so while he may have fewer projects in the future I don't think he'll be gone completely.

If Evil Beagle wants to stay in business, they'll have to drop him like a hot rock too.  Otherwise, they will destroy the company too.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1041397If Evil Beagle wants to stay in business, they'll have to drop him like a hot rock too.  Otherwise, they will destroy the company too.

Fannon IS Evil Beagle. That's his personal label, sort of like how Kevin Crawford is basically synonymous with Sine Nomine. He also works/worked with other companies like Pinnacle or SpyGlass Games (the Freedom Squadron Kickstarter linked earlier), and it's those connections that remain in doubt for now. He's stepped away from Pinnacle, probably for PR reasons. I don't know if he will with SpyGlass, though, because he was the lead writer and developer on their Kickstarter game and I don't know how far along they are yet. There's also the fact that most Savage Worlds fans don't kick up a fuss over Internet drama. Rifts is big enough that maybe he felt stepping away would be best for Pinnacle, but for a smaller game like Freedom Squadron I honestly doubt most of the backers give a damn.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1041397If Evil Beagle wants to stay in business, they'll have to drop him like a hot rock too.  Otherwise, they will destroy the company too.

I really doubt the majority of Savage Worlds spenders care that much about internet opinions outside of maybe the Google+ group (and that's really just to get news).

Quote from: Rhedyn;1041405I really doubt the majority of Savage Worlds spenders care that much about internet opinions outside of maybe the Google+ group (and that's really just to get news).

Who cares about the customers.  They aren't the threat, it's the social pressures from the other businesses.  By letting him work on a project, even tangentially related to them, they are, by association GUILTY because they're letting a 'serial rapist' or however they're spinning his crime, work with them.  Guilt by association.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1041412Who cares about the customers.  They aren't the threat, it's the social pressures from the other businesses.  By letting him work on a project, even tangentially related to them, they are, by association GUILTY because they're letting a 'serial rapist' or however they're spinning his crime, work with them.  Guilt by association.

Precisely. It's not about customers and revenues. It's about the opinions of wannabe "thought leaders" in the RPG "community".

Hence the drive to redefine "RPG community" to include those who never created or even played a game, to allow those wannabe thought leaders to declare themselves "members of the community", therefore "speaking for the 'silenced' ones in the community", and "we need a community Code of Conduct for the public functions of the community", and "we need to ostracize those who do not adhere to the Code of Conduct", etc. Classic convergence tactic.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1041412Who cares about the customers.  They aren't the threat, it's the social pressures from the other businesses.  By letting him work on a project, even tangentially related to them, they are, by association GUILTY because they're letting a 'serial rapist' or however they're spinning his crime, work with them.  Guilt by association.

I listened to Shane Hensley in pod cast and he described how licencing is handled. They are pretty strict the first time, then they only pull the license if fans complain about that company to them at conventions AND they then verify that the complaints are true.

Also if "they" went after Savage Worlds as a whole that would probably only increase revenue because next to no one even knows about Savage Worlds.

SW just doesn't attract a large following from people who spend too much time on the internet. Dead games have more active forums than PEG's.

I just wanted to swing by to remind everyone this thread was brought to you by the makers of Chris Helton and the letter H (for hypocrisy). We now return you to your regularly scheduled commentary.

Quote from: jhkim;1038494Sure. I'd be interested to see examples of that. I recall some speculation about Rufus and Burne in The Village of Hommlet, but that's about it.

I've heard some about speculation about Roghan the Fearless and Zelligar the Unknown from B1 In Search of the Unknown, as well.

But I generally agree with the argument that orientation is irrelevant -- more than that, it's generally a negative in published materials. You're right that some bar wenches have specific hookups mentioned in a few modules, but those made me wince even when they were new. It always felt like someone shoehorning their adolescent sexuality into the game -- notice how many them of had a Charisma of 18 (or at a minimum, 16+)? D&D isn't a game about sex or romantic relationships. It's about dungeons, monsters, gold, exploring the unknown, and things like that. And old school D&D in particular often sacrifices the ancillary aspects of character development for gameplay and emergent characterization. Since romantic relationships tends to be emergent and PC-driven, it works better if things like that are left ambiguous, and left to the DM to develop in whatever way makes the most sense in their particular campaign. The only exception is when it's important to the plot, which isn't a factor in most old school adventures anyway.

Quote from: Pat;1041504I've heard some about speculation about Roghan the Fearless and Zelligar the Unknown from B1 In Search of the Unknown, as well.

But I think the first question has to be: How many characters are portrayed as explicitly heterosexual in old school D&D? Because D&D, fundamentally, isn't a game about sex or romantic relationships. It's about dungeons, monsters, gold, exploring the unknown, and things like that. And old school D&D in particular often sacrifices the ancillary aspects of character development for gameplay and emergent characterization. So because it has nothing to do with the game, most NPCs in D&D don't have an explicit orientation. And it makes no sense to complain about one sexuality being underrepresented when sexuality is usually unknown.

Hi, Pat.

Yes, sexuality is *typically* unknown. Who knows if orc #4 is secretly in love with orc #17, after all. However, there are plenty of places where sexuality is defined. I posted a number of examples from Gygax's Temple of Elemental Evil earlier.  Here are some of the quotes:

QuoteWench: Dala, a cutpurse (Level 3 Thief), AC 6 (no armor); hp 15; XP 95
S 11 111 W 10 D 18 Co 15 Ch 13
Thief abilities: PP 70; OL 48; F/RT 35; MS 37; HS 30; HN 15; CW 87. Carried: dagger (concealed), 1-4 pieces of cheap jewelry (total value 2-12 gp). She often picks pockets.
In a small room upstairs, Dala has a philtre of love and a pair of jeweled earrings (worth 700 gp) under a loose floor board, and 87 gp in her mattress. She is Dick Rentsch's lover.

QuoteWench: Pearl, a cutpurse (Level 3 Thief), AC 8 (no armor); hp 13; XP 89
S13 114 W9 D16 Co 12 Ch 11
Thief abilities: PP 60; OL 38; F/RT 30; MS 27; HS 20; HN 15; CW 87.
Carried: dagger (concealed), 1-4 pieces of cheap jewelry (total value 2-12 gp). She occasionally picks pockets, but usually limits such work to inebriated victims.
In a small room upstairs, Pearl has a sil- ver case (worth 75 gp and adorned with a sapphire worth 1,000 gp) which contains 19 pp. However, the whole is covered with thick dripped wax, topped by a half-burnt candle and seems to be a perfectly normal and worthless candleholder. The coins are likewise imbedded in wax to prevent telltale rattling. Pearl is Wat's paramour.

QuoteBarmaid: Lodriss, Level 0, Ability scores average; hp 5, no armor, XP 53. Carried: normal dagger (tucked into her girdle), a poisoned dagger (under her skirt), purse with 2 cp, 7 ep, 4 gp, and 8 pp; also wears jeweled earrings (worth 400 gp), gold neck chains (the lot worth 120 gp), four bracelets (values 50, 200, 210, and 500 gp), and a pair of rings (200 and 800 gp).

Lodriss is actually the owner of the Boatmens' Tavern. She is a former camp follower, and is now mistress to Tolub (see below), one of the river pirate leaders who frequents Nulb to sell ill-gotten cargoes and to restock supplies.

QuoteThis cell holds four elves. If freed, they ask to be shown the route out so they can immediately return to their homeland, but express great gratitude and promise rewards for their rescuers. Two elves are normal, but two are Noble--Countess Trillahi of Celene and her consort, Sir Juffer.
Elves, normal (2): AC 9, MV 12", HD 1 + 1, hp 7, 6, no weapons; Dexterity 15 each; XP 21, 20
Countess Tillahi of Celene: AC 6, MV 12", Level 5/4 Fighter/Magic-User, hp 22, no current weapons or spells, Dexterity 18; XP651
Sir Juffer: AC 8, MV 12", Level 4/4 Cleric/Ranger, hp 28, no current weapons, no spells castable (due to curse upon him), Dexterity 16; XP 468

QuoteHerein dwells Smigmal Redhand, a half-orc Fighter/Assassin. She is the leman of Falrinth (in area 337) and leader of the band of brigands in the outer ruins (Tower).
...
Smigmal Redhand: AC 4 (leather +1) & shield +2), MV 12", Level 7/7 Fighter/Assassin, hp 41, XP 4924 S 17 115 W 7 D 16 Co 17 Ch 14 #AT 3/2, D 3-8, SA poison on sword (insinuative type B, + 3 bonus to saving throw, Dmg 25 in 2 rounds), SD ring of invisibility; Thief Abilities: PP 45, OL 52, F/RT 45, MS 40, HS 31, HN 25, CW 95, RL 15

Smigmal wears leather armor + 1, uses a shield + 2, and wields a shortsword + 1 in normal combat (or a non-glowing normal shortsword in assassination attempts). She is thoroughly evil, and loves her work. She hungers for power to make humans suffer, and hates her human ancestry. She sees Falrinth as her tool, the one who will best aid her in gaining her power. She will fight to protect Falrinth if such action appears worthwhile, but will certainly try to save herself from certain death.

There are also dozens of examples of there being a husband/wife pair in the village and town.

Quote from: jhkim;1041507Hi, Pat.

Yes, sexuality is *typically* unknown. Who knows if orc #4 is secretly in love with orc #17, after all. However, there are plenty of places where sexuality is defined. I posted a number of examples from Gygax's Temple of Elemental Evil earlier.  Here are some of the quotes:







There are also dozens of examples of there being a husband/wife pair in the village and town.

I thought we already had this argument with Motorskills being a White Knight for "diversity" and "inclusion". Leave it in Punditry where it belongs.

Quote from: jhkim;1041507Yes, sexuality is *typically* unknown. Who knows if orc #4 is secretly in love with orc #17, after all. However, there are plenty of places where sexuality is defined. I posted a number of examples from Gygax's Temple of Elemental Evil earlier.  Here are some of the quotes:

I've been away, and didn't check to see how much thread had happened before I replied to your post. I did notice your post with the examples as I continued to read the thread, edited my post to address it, and dropped the parts that had already been covered fairly well. You managed to reply before the edit took effect.

I don't think T1-4 is a very good module. One reason is it spends way too much time detailing inconsequential minutia about every single individual in both Hommlett and Nulb. The examples you posted from T1-4 are all good examples of too much information, and I don't think any other classic modules have that level detail. In most, references like that are rare, and tend to be inferred minor background details, like a mention of a king and a queen, or a husband and wife. And it's surprising how often gender is unknown -- unless they use a pronoun, a gendered term like queen or husband, or explicitly put something like "Sex: f" as a line in the stat block (didn't A1 do that?), we have no way to knowing whether they're men or women. Fantasy made-up names, with few exceptions, are inherently gender-agnostic.

The absence of explicit homosexual pairings in old school modules is definitely a thing, but the presence of heterosexual pairings is also light. It's not really the focus of D&D, after all.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1041274"Help us Oh Giant Meteor! You're our only hope!"

"No, there is another."

Quote from: CarlD.;1041602"No, there is another."

"as we become less dense."  Duuuuhhhhh....

Quote from: CarlD.;1041602"No, there is another."

I always vote "Zombie Apocalypse".

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1040873"Those damn punks with their mohawks and loud music are destroying America!"

And before that is was those damn kids with their greasy hair, jackets and hot rods. And probably some sort of music. Its not complete unless theres some music to disapprove of. :cool: