Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1039201Which is a fine example of begging the question--that is, it's assuming that all forms of sexual orientation, family life, etc. are equally normative and deserving of representation, which is one of the points under debate.

When I run a game, I not only look at the player's sheets, I copy them onto a sheet by hand, and then copy a summary of all of them on another sheet. Sometimes I discuss plot points with the players and find out what kind of content they are looking for in a game, and come up with relevant side plots. If LGBT representation was deemed important, I would include it. Most of the time, players just want to hit things and take their stuff.

Quote from: jhkimIs this lazy writing unless there is a story-important reason for her to be Rentsch's lover?

Quote from: Aglondir;1039088Let's say you're running this as a sandbox. The players could use that information in a variety of ways. They could attend Dala and Dick's wedding. They could plan the wedding. If Dala was a man, the PC's could demand that the local baker (a devotee of St. Cuthbert) decorate the wedding cake. Or defend his right not to. (META!) Or if they were of an evil mind, they could kindnap Dick and demand ransom from Dala. Or vice versa.  

I'm inclined to think more info is better, especially since OSR is all about the sandbox. I'm also inclined to think it's interesting to include a gay couple in a module, and a short phrase at the end of the description is a perfect way to do it.

Yeah, I definitely prefer more of a sandbox approach to modules. Maybe Dala and Dick never come up at all, maybe they do. But I've had some great adventures that came out of little details in a module.

Quote from: Omega;1039086Exactly. Most of the NPCs from the TSR era were never stated what their "sexual orientation" was. And didnt need to. The DM could make them anything, or nothing, because 99.99 percent of the time it is not relevant even. Any by that same token we do not need to be told anyone is NOT gay, lesbian, illithid, whatever.

That said. Some adventures it can be a relevant plot point for a DM to know. Especially in say an intrigue or espionage type campaign. Though even there you could just leave them neutral and have a note for the DM about how tossing in such an orientation can make for an intriguing problem for the PCs to overcome.

Omega - did you see my earlier examples from Temple of Elemental Evil? I posted five couples explicitly mentioned in the module in Post #202, and that's not even counting all the husband/wife households in the village... plus of course Rufus and Burne in their one bedroom :-).

I would agree that the majority aren't defined, but there are often several couples mentioned in a module - if the module has any NPCs and not just monsters and traps. Personally, I like my NPCs to come across like real people - and among real people, it is very common to have a spouse/partner.

So let me get this straight...(err... you know what I mean).

In order to enjoy D&D in the privacy of your own home, to play as you wish, with others ostensibly as you see fit, the game itself has to have representation of every alternative lifestyle and every culture you've never heard of, doing things that may/may not be morally, ethically, philosophically, physically, emotionally, attractive/distractive/repugnant to others, represented to the satisfaction of strangers on the internet?

That's where we're at?

LOL

Quote from: rgalex;1039197Have you ever had the PCs meet the King and Queen?  What about an innkeeper and his wife?  How about a farm worked/owned by a family?  If so, then according to some you have overtly included sexual orientation in your RPGs.  I've even seen it claimed that those examples are shoving your heterosexual norms down their throats and reason enough to force the opposite into games.

I know it's awfully CIS-normative, patriarchal, and colonialist of me, but I use historical medieval society as the baseline for my fantasy worlds. So yeah, farmers will be heterosexuals because they need to raise children to help on the farm. And kings will have queens because they live in hereditary aristocracies. Could some NPCs have illicit same-sex lovers? Sure. But I can't even get my head around an entire pre-modern society abandoning sex roles and hetero mating and child-rearing. How does succession work? How does the king get more farmers for the fields and soldiers for his armies? Does the mage's guild offer in-vitro fertilization services? Raise armies from clone banks? I like my fantasy weird, but not that weird.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1039201Which is a fine example of begging the question--that is, it's assuming that all forms of sexual orientation, family life, etc. are equally normative and deserving of representation, which is one of the points under debate.

Not by anybody with a scrap of human decency.

Quote from: tenbones;1039208So let me get this straight...(err... you know what I mean).

The thread has been won. No further comment necessary.

Quote from: tenbones;1039208So let me get this straight...(err... you know what I mean).

In order to enjoy D&D in the privacy of your own home, to play as you wish, with others ostensibly as you see fit, the game itself has to have representation of every alternative lifestyle and every culture you've never heard of, doing things that may/may not be morally, ethically, philosophically, physically, emotionally, attractive/distractive/repugnant to others, represented to the satisfaction of strangers on the internet?

That's where we're at?

LOL

No, that's what you have to do to sell a commercial product in today's world.

And I have enough LGBTQOMGWTFBBQ friends to have some idea of how it makes them feel to actually see characters like themselves.

And if wanting my non-cis-white-male-heterosexual friends to feel like a game acknowledges their existence makes me a "Social Justice Warrior," I accept the designation with pride.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1039218And if wanting my non-cis-white-male-heterosexual friends to feel like a game acknowledges their existence makes me a "Social Justice Warrior," I accept the designation with pride.

Perhaps the problem is that that acknowledgement is reducing them down to their sexuality, their group identity, as their most important trait. Perhaps the only trait that "counts".

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1039224Perhaps the problem is that that acknowledgement is reducing them down to their sexuality, their group identity, as their most important trait. Perhaps the only trait that "counts".

I once played in a Star Wars game with a straight player playing a Wookiee who kept insisting the character shaved his genital area and walked around like that. In another D&D game, we had Conan the Ballbarian.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1039218No, that's what you have to do to sell a commercial product in today's world.

And I have enough LGBTQOMGWTFBBQ friends to have some idea of how it makes them feel to actually see characters like themselves.

And if wanting my non-cis-white-male-heterosexual friends to feel like a game acknowledges their existence makes me a "Social Justice Warrior," I accept the designation with pride.

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Quote from: Ratman_tf;1039224Perhaps the problem is that that acknowledgement is reducing them down to their sexuality, their group identity, as their most important trait. Perhaps the only trait that "counts".

The expected outcome of identity politics.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1039229[ATTACH=CONFIG]2494[/ATTACH]

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Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1039233[ATTACH=CONFIG]2495[/ATTACH]

Yeah, if you have to resort to this, you've lost this one.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1039224Perhaps the problem is that that acknowledgement is reducing them down to their sexuality, their group identity, as their most important trait. Perhaps the only trait that "counts".

  From the common point of view, I'm overrepresented in WotC products. From another point of view, after some representation during the TSR days, WotC has been engaged in wholesale erasure of people like me and appropriation of my culture.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1039218No, that's what you have to do to sell a commercial product in today's world.

What do you think about the idea I suggested earlier? Allow me to repeat it:

For example, a scenario in which the Baron's eldest son wants the PCs to help him escape an arranged wedding because he is in love with his squire. After the PCs succesfully help him escape, the young lord and the squire become an adventuring duo and allies of the party for several escapades. Meanwhile the evil younger brother becomes the heir but secretly puts a bounty on his brother's head and the PCs too. Finally when the Baron dies, young evil brother puts the squeeze on the common folk and the elder gay son returns to depose him with the PCs help. Saga ends with the eldest son becoming the Baron, his squire as his captain (and open secret that he is his "beloved") and the PCs rewarded with their own keep to clear out and occupy as their own in the hinterlands of the Barony (only to discover the deposed younger brother waiting there to take his revenge).

This way the PCs actually care and hopefully the players too.

Moreover, if the scenario above was published, I would put in options to allow the DM to include what he/she and his/her group were comfortable with.

1. The lover is not his squire but is actually his maid or some other member of the common class (changing theme from homosexual love to class conflict).
2. The lover is an elfin maiden sent as a diplomat/ambassador by  Queen Galdrielrond (changing the theme from homosexual love to miscegeny).
3. The eldest son is actually the eldest daughter and the squire is a handmaiden. (lesbian and femminism issues)
4. The eldest son is actually the eldest daughet and the squire is the stableboy. (class and femminism issues)
5. There is no love interest with the loyal squire. The eldest son has sworn an oath of celibacy to God because he's a secret Paladin. The squire loves his lord platonically. (religious freedom)

That would allow for the GM and players to have themes they want to explore without being given no choice: after all, issues of class/caste, the rights of women and racial equality are just as important as those of LGBQT rights.


Would love to have your input.