Quote from: Silas1066;1038478I was saying that the guys who write and design D&D have no issues putting gay characters into the books and modules, but raise a shit storm about adventures like "In the Dungeons of the Slave Lords". In other words, they are still policing content, but only the content they personally find objectionable.

That's rich. The Dungeons of the Slave Lords was released by the RPGA in 1980 as a tournament module. The Slave Lords,  ...was of course a subliminal reference to TSR, and the RPGA, and was their private little joke between them about how they would get control of all of RPG gaming by requiring mandatory registration of AD&D games at conventions, that could only use RPGA approved content.

It backfired on them, and split their core fan group. This was the first of many bad moves that eventually bankrupted TSR.

Quote from: GRIM;1038371I don't want to excise the 'Social Justice Warriors' from the hobby any more than I wanted to excise the religious from the hobby. I just want them to stop trying to dictate to everyone else and to stop passing judgement and establishing purity tests. To stop trying to take control.

But that's what they do.  The SJW is the new Puritan.  Do it their way, or you're the infidel.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1038475Hence my repeated statement that this place is turning into the Mirror Universe RPGnet.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1038476So gay and transgender people are as bad as slavelords?  You are a walking talking piece of shit.

Here, I think you dropped these: [ATTACH=CONFIG]2479[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Silas1066;1038478Gay and transgender people are just like most people. Some are nice people, and some are complete shit heads. They don't get a pass because of sexual preference or membership in some identity group. No with me anyway.

OK, but if they're just like most people - why are you saying it isn't family-friendly to have gay characters in games?

Quote from: jhkimOK, what I see there on James Raggi's channel is mostly him and other people complaining about Silas1066's charge that Lamentations is desecrating D&D. Who are you saying that James Raggi and Lamentations fans are trying to exclude from the hobby?

Quote from: GameDaddy;1038479The Pundit and pretty much everyone over here on the RPGSite. For awhile they were busy over on G+ trash talking the Pundit and the RPGSite

So you're saying that if someone trash-talks you, they're trying to exclude you from the hobby? Hell, here on theRPGsite, we trash-talk each other here a ton.  We're excluding ourselves from the hobby better than the LotFP fans can!!!  It takes a special kind of Oppression Olympian, I think, to regularly trash-talk others - but then if they're trash-talked, to cry about being excluded and oppressed.  Here on theRPGsite, I don't feel excluded or oppressed by people calling me names - and we call other people lots of names.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1038479Since it seems to be relevant, I'll look through my old TSR gaming modules and see if I can find any openly gay characters, pretty sure there are a few in there, since TSR delighted and took about every opportunity to tweak everyone's misconceptions regarding gender and equality.

Sure. I'd be interested to see examples of that. I recall some speculation about Rufus and Burne in The Village of Hommlet, but that's about it.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1038479For example, even if the writing wasn't, the artwork older gaming material was much more open minded then from contemporary gaming companies other than LotFP, specifically;

OSR Art Friday: The Cover of Eldritch Wizardry
http://saveversusallwands.blogspot.com/2014/09/osr-art-friday-cover-of-eldritch.html

and

The Good, the Bad, and the Clothed;
http://saveversusallwands.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-good-bad-and-clothed.html

In short, old school RPG art is actually more open minded than the majority of our contemporaries now

Wow!  This is seriously like some kind of funhouse-mirror imitation of the recent academic analysis counting up pictures of men and women in the D&D books.  You're counting up how many PH pictures have nudity / partial nudity, and judging 5e D&D as uptight and anti-fun because of its lack of nudity.  I have no problem with the Eldritch Wizardry cover, but I also don't have any problem with the 5e illustrations.  I don't think that a lack of nude illustrations in 5e is inherently either uptight or anti-fun.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1038433That said, we are having a problem now with a bunch of gay, bi, and transgender guys trying to gatekeep our hobby, and to deliberately exclude people, for no good reason at all... other than they don't like them.

I game (and have gamed for decades) with plenty of LGBT people and NONE of them have every sought to exclude people from our hobby. 99% strive for the opposite. I do know some gay guys locally have their own Meetups, but that's no more exclusive than the boardgame club that meets at a local church and most of the gamers belong to that church.

I wonder how many SJWs vomiting stupid on their keyboards are actually LGBT. SJW culture seems to draw self-haters, often with significant mental issues, and online anonymity allows them to become pretend crusaders.

Quote from: jhkim;1038456To clarify - Silas1066 is complaining about the appearance of gay characters in official D&D materials - and in reaction, I was referring to "gay-free" as D&D adventures/sourcebooks being free of gay characters. As far as I know, for a long time there were no gay characters in official published D&D adventures and sourcebooks.

I suspect there were no EXPLICITLY homosexual characters. But how did we know any of the NPC's sexuality unless it was discussed in the text? How often did that occur?

Morty, Half Elf, Fighter 4, Magic User 3, HP 27, AC 3, +1 sword, Boots of Elvenkind, Potion of Undead Control, 29 GP, 34 SP
Morty can be found drinking at the Giant Lizard Tavern and will accompany adventurers on quests if promised a magic item as payment.

So based on this data...in whom does Morty like to put his dick?

Quote from: jhkim;1038494So you're saying that if someone trash-talks you, they're trying to exclude you from the hobby? Hell, here on theRPGsite, we trash-talk each other here a ton.  We're excluding ourselves from the hobby better than the LotFP fans can!!!  It takes a special kind of Oppression Olympian, I think, to regularly trash-talk others - but then if they're trash-talked, to cry about being excluded and oppressed.  Here on theRPGsite, I don't feel excluded or oppressed by people calling me names - and we call other people lots of names.

Hrmm?... No, they were trash talking, ...however when I counter-challenged... they blocked me so I could no longer see what they were talking about, which is ...ahh, blatant censorship Which G+ approves of. It's why G+ is being labeled by some as politically incorrect over there, and rightfully so. Also, they couldn't get away with trash talking and lying like that over here, and would instantly called out for their two-faced hypocrisy.

Quote from: jhkim;1038494Sure. I'd be interested to see examples of that. I recall some speculation about Rufus and Burne in The Village of Hommlet, but that's about it.  

Wasn't aware of that one. There's a few folks that were once over at TSR, and I'll get back to them and inquoire directly, and of course Jennell Jaquays who delighted in adding Easter Eggs into her JUdges Guild publications.

Quote from: jhkim;1038494Wow!  This is seriously like some kind of funhouse-mirror imitation of the recent academic analysis counting up pictures of men and women in the D&D books.  You're counting up how many PH pictures have nudity / partial nudity, and judging 5e D&D as uptight and anti-fun because of its lack of nudity.  I have no problem with the Eldritch Wizardry cover, but I also don't have any problem with the 5e illustrations.  I don't think that a lack of nude illustrations in 5e is inherently either uptight or anti-fun.

Oakes was just making the point the older D&D books were much more relaxed towards gender and race issues than current publishers (...with the exception of James, and Zak of course). I wasn't looking into that to define 5e as uptight, although he does.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1038495I game (and have gamed for decades) with plenty of LGBT people and NONE of them have every sought to exclude people from our hobby. 99% strive for the opposite. I do know some gay guys locally have their own Meetups, but that's no more exclusive than the boardgame club that meets at a local church and most of the gamers belong to that church.

I wonder how many SJWs vomiting stupid on their keyboards are actually LGBT. SJW culture seems to draw self-haters, often with significant mental issues, and online anonymity allows them to become pretend crusaders.

Well today, I had a few folks censoring me over on G+ trying to deliberately exclude me from a hobby that I have been a part of since before they were born. They were socializing with a self-identified LGBT crowd over there, that almost all 30/8 responded very negatively to James's allegations in regards to members of the RPGSite which in retrospect, appear misplaced. Just 'sayin.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1038495I suspect there were no EXPLICITLY homosexual characters. But how did we know any of the NPC's sexuality unless it was discussed in the text? How often did that occur?

Morty, Half Elf, Fighter 4, Magic User 3, HP 27, AC 3, +1 sword, Boots of Elvenkind, Potion of Undead Control, 29 GP, 34 SP
Morty can be found drinking at the Giant Lizard Tavern and will accompany adventurers on quests if promised a magic item as payment.

So based on this data...in whom does Morty like to put his dick?

I find that it's not uncommon for modules to specify couples in the text. Here are some examples from Temple of Elemental Evil, for example -

QuoteWench: Dala, a cutpurse (Level 3 Thief), AC 6 (no armor); hp 15; XP 95
S 11 111 W 10 D 18 Co 15 Ch 13
Thief abilities: PP 70; OL 48; F/RT 35; MS 37; HS 30; HN 15; CW 87. Carried: dagger (concealed), 1-4 pieces of cheap jewelry (total value 2-12 gp). She often picks pockets.
In a small room upstairs, Dala has a philtre of love and a pair of jeweled earrings (worth 700 gp) under a loose floor board, and 87 gp in her mattress. She is Dick Rentsch's lover.

QuoteWench: Pearl, a cutpurse (Level 3 Thief), AC 8 (no armor); hp 13; XP 89
S 13 I 14 W9 D16 Co 12 Ch 11
Thief abilities: PP 60; OL 38; F/RT 30; MS 27; HS 20; HN 15; CW 87.
Carried: dagger (concealed), 1-4 pieces of cheap jewelry (total value 2-12 gp). She occasionally picks pockets, but usually limits such work to inebriated victims.
In a small room upstairs, Pearl has a sil- ver case (worth 75 gp and adorned with a sapphire worth 1,000 gp) which contains 19 pp. However, the whole is covered with thick dripped wax, topped by a half-burnt candle and seems to be a perfectly normal and worthless candleholder. The coins are likewise imbedded in wax to prevent telltale rattling. Pearl is Wat's paramour.

QuoteBarmaid: Lodriss, Level 0, Ability scores average; hp 5, no armor, XP 53. Carried: normal dagger (tucked into her girdle), a poisoned dagger (under her skirt), purse with 2 cp, 7 ep, 4 gp, and 8 pp; also wears jeweled earrings (worth 400 gp), gold neck chains (the lot worth 120 gp), four bracelets (values 50, 200, 210, and 500 gp), and a pair of rings (200 and 800 gp).

Lodriss is actually the owner of the Boatmens' Tavern. She is a former camp follower, and is now mistress to Tolub (see below), one of the river pirate leaders who frequents Nulb to sell ill-gotten cargoes and to restock supplies.

QuoteThis cell holds four elves. If freed, they ask to be shown the route out so they can immediately return to their homeland, but express great gratitude and promise rewards for their rescuers. Two elves are normal, but two are Noble--Countess Trillahi of Celene and her consort, Sir Juffer.
Elves, normal (2): AC 9, MV 12", HD 1 + 1, hp 7, 6, no weapons; Dexterity 15 each; XP 21, 20
Countess Tillahi of Celene: AC 6, MV 12", Level 5/4 Fighter/Magic-User, hp 22, no current weapons or spells, Dexterity 18; XP651
Sir Juffer: AC 8, MV 12", Level 4/4 Cleric/Ranger, hp 28, no current weapons, no spells castable (due to curse upon him), Dexterity 16; XP 468

QuoteHerein dwells Smigmal Redhand, a half-orc Fighter/Assassin. She is the leman of Falrinth (in area 337) and leader of the band of brigands in the outer ruins (Tower).
...
Smigmal Redhand: AC 4 (leather +1) & shield +2), MV 12", Level 7/7 Fighter/Assassin, hp 41, XP 4924 S 17 115 W 7 D 16 Co 17 Ch 14 #AT 3/2, D 3-8, SA poison on sword (insinuative type B, + 3 bonus to saving throw, Dmg 25 in 2 rounds), SD ring of invisibility; Thief Abilities: PP 45, OL 52, F/RT 45, MS 40, HS 31, HN 25, CW 95, RL 15

Smigmal wears leather armor + 1, uses a shield + 2, and wields a shortsword + 1 in normal combat (or a non-glowing normal shortsword in assassination attempts). She is thoroughly evil, and loves her work. She hungers for power to make humans suffer, and hates her human ancestry. She sees Falrinth as her tool, the one who will best aid her in gaining her power. She will fight to protect Falrinth if such action appears worthwhile, but will certainly try to save herself from certain death.

Note that "leman" is an old term for lover.

I've been racking my brain for a couple of hours and I can't recall anybody during a game be concerned over what sexual preferences a Player or GM or their PCs or NPCs had. We were interested in running and playing the game. This is what confuses me since I think this all started to be important to some only about 4-5 years ago. Up until then, nobody cared.

So what was the major turning point to cause this to become important to gaming and important to SJWs?

Quote from: jeff37923;1038506I've been racking my brain for a couple of hours and I can't recall anybody during a game be concerned over what sexual preferences a Player or GM or their PCs or NPCs had. We were interested in running and playing the game. This is what confuses me since I think this all started to be important to some only about 4-5 years ago. Up until then, nobody cared.

So what was the major turning point to cause this to become important to gaming and important to SJWs?

Beats me.  I've had this discussion with LBGT gamers.  I've said my take on it is

"Luke... I love you."
"Wonderful, Han.  Now toss me a spare energy cell for my lightsaber and try to gimmick the door while I hold them off, and if we get out of here alive we can talk about it."

Response has been overwhelmingly positive.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1038495I game (and have gamed for decades) with plenty of LGBT people and NONE of them have every sought to exclude people from our hobby.

For that matter, sex in most of our games has been "I'm gonna buy some expensive drinks and try to pick up a guy/girl."

* roll dice *

"Okay/no luck"

ON the rare occasions it comes up at all.  "Fussypants the dwarf has my back in every fight, I don't give a crap who he pokes in his fun times."

Quote from: jeff37923;1038506I've been racking my brain for a couple of hours and I can't recall anybody during a game be concerned over what sexual preferences a Player or GM or their PCs or NPCs had. We were interested in running and playing the game. This is what confuses me since I think this all started to be important to some only about 4-5 years ago. Up until then, nobody cared.

So what was the major turning point to cause this to become important to gaming and important to SJWs?

When people bought game books to read instead of using them for source material for playing the game?  I don't know; I got nothing.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1038512When people bought game books to read instead of using them for source material for playing the game?  I don't know; I got nothing.

People have been doing that since the little brown books were released.  It was probably rarer back then but I remember seeing both Ryan Dancy and Monte Cook comment that TSR/WoTC were aware of that audience and that was back around 3e's release.

This specific issue seems to have been linked to this particular decade, and it is more of a cultural thing...and it's mostly about Entertainment in general, not just gaming.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1038495Morty, Half Elf, Fighter 4, Magic User 3, HP 27, AC 3, +1 sword, Boots of Elvenkind, Potion of Undead Control, 29 GP, 34 SP
Morty can be found drinking at the Giant Lizard Tavern and will accompany adventurers on quests if promised a magic item as payment.

So based on this data...in whom does Morty like to put his dick?

How is that even a question?  Half-Elf...Boots of Elvenkind...the answer of course is anything with two legs, plus gynosphinxes and lamia.

Quote from: jeff37923;1038506I've been racking my brain for a couple of hours and I can't recall anybody during a game be concerned over what sexual preferences a Player or GM or their PCs or NPCs had. We were interested in running and playing the game. This is what confuses me since I think this all started to be important to some only about 4-5 years ago. Up until then, nobody cared.

So what was the major turning point to cause this to become important to gaming and important to SJWs?

As for the origin - I don't recall any significant liberal campaigns complaining about lack of gay characters in gaming material.  Instead, I recall it becoming an issue when gay characters started appearing in game books, and conservative gamers complained that it was a problem - like Silas1066 saying that it is making games not family-friendly, and that the intrusion of gays and women is completely changing the game. The first instance I recall was in complaints about the Blue Rose RPG pushing a homosexual agenda.

Personally, I don't consider it all that significant. Presence or lack of gay characters doesn't figure into my purchasing decisions of game material. In this thread, I was reacting to other people's complaints about it - not bringing it up as an issue myself.