Quote from: Opaopajr;1038082Nah, my critique was complex as it hit at the core of why Feed is needlessly complicated to interact with, how it disassociates, and offering unevocative pablum as a setting. But you like it, and hate WW, so yeah, you'll be on topics like these to push your darling. I get it, too old to care in the same way nowadays, but once upon a time I did. Have fun chasing the dream!

I still have no idea what you meant because you failed to provide much context, analysis, examples of play or comparison to WoD. It is easy to assemble lists of flaws in the Storytelling System. I am genuinely interested in seeing the same effort put toward analyzing Feed.

I mean, sure, Feed certainly has its flaws as the only review I could find pointed out (and what RPG doesn't?), but it is vastly superior to WoD in terms of flexibility and adjudicating humanity loss. The organization could use some revision and the tone is weird since much of the book makes a big deal about characters not wanting to be monsters only to include B-movie monster vampires as a sample premise.

Let me try an example of my own... If I understand you correctly, you criticized the anchoring/hunger/etc as being dissociative. The mechanic is not very different from the loads of similar mechanics in WoD like the beast or the shadow. So I don't understand your point as it being more dissociative than WoD. It is not possible to depict internal conflicts in RPGs without being dissociative since traditional RPGs train players to treat that sort of thing as "role playing" and somehow fundamentally different from normal task resolution.

If you think the rules are needlessly complicated, do you have suggestions for simplification? Off the top of my head, the different types of dice can be replaced with a single die type and simple division. This complaint is something that makes perfect sense to me, since figuring out a simple task resolution is probably the bane of RPGs as a genre.

As for "unevocative pablum as a setting"... it is supposed to be a toolkit, it was a kickstarter project written by one guy that never got continuations due to lack of funds, and it is being given out for free. We were lucky to get what little we did and it is a huge breath of fresh air compared to WoD. It works as a toolkit, way better than WoD ever did, and if we want a setting there are loads of existing settings to take inspiration from as well as our own imaginations.

I love critique and would like to see more. But your criticisms boil down largely to the game being non-traditional, which is sort of the entire appeal and probably the only reason the game works. The humanity mechanic, for example, cannot work under traditional attribute/skill mechanics... or at least not as well, I have yet to try.

What is with the Mage hate in this thread?

Holy christ on a crapstick, you'd think Mage was like a dragon giving itself a reacharound -- which, that said, is an ouroboros but err...

Mage is one of my least favorite of the games in the4 NWOD and OWOD. I gave Awakening a shot, GM'd  it, was pleasantly surprised that it turned out to be pretty solid. You have to get rid of that abysmal Atlantean plot hook and stuff but get past all that surface crap and its a great game to host. Its pretty good at punishing stupidity and player bullshit so that's defo in its favor.

I'd say if you're "never gonna give it a try": fuck your feelings, go GM it.

If you don't like one, you won't like the other and Awakening is handsdown the better system and setting to test that out. Ascension is just a mess: it's very limited in that its premise ostensibly is about belief but it's really about the belief of your chosen faction as a collective which then melds in with the other collectives which then leads to a watered-down and flowery interpretation of chaos magick (yeah, with a fucking "k") where belief doesn't actually mean shit in the end, especially for your character personally. Completely defeating the point. Mechanics are OWOD so that tells you all you need to know.

Awakening keeps it simple: world's a gnostic prison and you're trying to escape it (and hopefully get yours while trying). Much more compelling take on the human condition -- and at the core, that's what all WOD games are about. Everyone's got their take on how to escape, that's part of why the Orders exist but it's all because Mages are humans and like to be with people who think like them. Keeps it simple. You're a still a regular human being to start with: it's that process of becoming enmeshed in the darkly myopic and increasingly brutal magical world that's great to experience (at least, that's how I ran it). Oh, and ignore the Imperial Mysteries sourcebook -- that was utter shite. Completely defeated the point of Mage by turning it "cosmic".

So yeah, save your hate for Mummy and Demon and Changeling and... urrrgh, that Beast one written by the SJW "alleged" child molester.

Quote from: PrometheanVigil;1038092What is with the Mage hate in this thread?

Holy christ on a crapstick, you'd think Mage was like a dragon giving itself a reacharound -- which, that said, is an ouroboros but err...

Mage is one of my least favorite of the games in the4 NWOD and OWOD. I gave Awakening a shot, GM'd  it, was pleasantly surprised that it turned out to be pretty solid. You have to get rid of that abysmal Atlantean plot hook and stuff but get past all that surface crap and its a great game to host. Its pretty good at punishing stupidity and player bullshit so that's defo in its favor.

I'd say if you're "never gonna give it a try": fuck your feelings, go GM it.

If you don't like one, you won't like the other and Awakening is handsdown the better system and setting to test that out. Ascension is just a mess: it's very limited in that its premise ostensibly is about belief but it's really about the belief of your chosen faction as a collective which then melds in with the other collectives which then leads to a watered-down and flowery interpretation of chaos magick (yeah, with a fucking "k") where belief doesn't actually mean shit in the end, especially for your character personally. Completely defeating the point. Mechanics are OWOD so that tells you all you need to know.

Awakening keeps it simple: world's a gnostic prison and you're trying to escape it (and hopefully get yours while trying). Much more compelling take on the human condition -- and at the core, that's what all WOD games are about. Everyone's got their take on how to escape, that's part of why the Orders exist but it's all because Mages are humans and like to be with people who think like them. Keeps it simple. You're a still a regular human being to start with: it's that process of becoming enmeshed in the darkly myopic and increasingly brutal magical world that's great to experience (at least, that's how I ran it). Oh, and ignore the Imperial Mysteries sourcebook -- that was utter shite. Completely defeated the point of Mage by turning it "cosmic".

So yeah, save your hate for Mummy and Demon and Changeling and... urrrgh, that Beast one written by the SJW "alleged" child molester.

I don't share the irrational hatred for Atlantis (or the propensity for sending the lead developer death threats) infesting the fandom like a plague. I find it about as relevant as claiming Troy or Carthage or Sumer were magocracies, academic trivia at best, but I don't find it a turn off. Oh no, the sheer irrelevance and idiosyncrasies of everything else is what turns me away.

Whenever I think magic, I think of The Dresden Files, Harry Potter, Charmed, The Magicians and a bazillion other urban fantasy novels. The Mage game doesn't capture any of what made those interesting and the politics are just plain unbelievable, which isn't surprising considering it was written by humanities majors and SJWs.

Changeling the lost is probably one of the best WW titles, if only because it was the single most creative product to ever come out of WW without turning into the surreal silliness of Mage the Ascension. The disturbing and surreal descriptions of fairyland were quite evocative.

Yeah, Mage sucked too.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1038335Yeah, Mage sucked too.

Hey, Mage: The Ascension 1e and 2e were fucking awesome!

Pundit, your justifications for your hate-on for White Wolf only applies to them in the Revised Era onward. In the early 1990's, White Wolf was based as fuck.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1037919What Sammy was saying is equivalent to asking for D&D to add "blackface minstrel" as a bard kit.

Holy shit that's hilarious.

Quote from: Chris24601;1037925Unknown Armies sucks,

I will knife fight you...

Quote from: Chris24601;1037925avatars of mystic hermaphrodites

Fun fact: This was removed in the latest edition. Because it was offensive.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1037944So Ascension is about playing an SJW?

Yes.

Got banned at the big purple for pointing that out too

Quote from: Chris24601;1037953One could argue that the 2016 election was the result of a whole bunch of non-SJWs coming out to vote because they wanted what they believed would be a better tomorrow.

One could also argue that it was 4Chan and meme magic.

#PraiseKek

Mage the Ascension was a mixed bag, IMHO.

The concept of vulgar and coincidental magic was really amazing and required, check this, player skill.

The Technocracy was great as an antagonist and the first scenario Loom of Fate was a GM friendly scenario that showed you how a MtA game could be run.

Then came the drek and bloat culminating in rip-offs like The Book of Mirrors which was all preachy and absolutely no utility.

Shame.

If they had kept the Traditions more an alliance of philosophy/ideology, like the Conventions of the Technocracy were, rather than having the "Ethnicity of the Month" "crafts" it might have been really cool.

Plus the more they published "rotes" the less comprehensible the Spheres became.

A simple list of "classic spell effects" to Sphere(s) Required would have sufficed.

Other faults with the 1e

Mawkishness (tho nowhere near as bad as later stuff)
Crappy artwork (ditto)
Fanfic
Not enough stats for antagonists
No beginning scenario (Loom of fate should have been part of the core book)

So anyway I went ahead and made a list of effects that are frequently called upon either by the PCs or the NPCs. The GM could keep this from his players or let the player in on a few that the PC is capable of. Then it can be updated, extended and revised as required.

Armour:   Energy 3, Matter 2 or Life 3
Banish:   Spirit 4
Barrier:   Prime 2 + Energy 3 or (Prime 2 + Matter 2 )or Correspondence 4
Beast Friend or Charm Person:   Mind 2
Bolt of Electricity:   Forces 2 (from ambient current)
Blast of Energy:   Prime 2 + Forces 3
Blind Person:   Mind: 3 or Life 3 or Entropy 4
Boost Body:   Life 3 (self) Life 4 (other)
Boost Mind:   Mind 1 (self) Mind 4 (other)
Confusion:    Mind 2 or Entropy5
Control Weathe:   Forces 4 (+ Correspondence 2 for widespread effects). The GM might rule that (Prime 2+Matter 2). Moreover Entropy 4 dissipates weather
Create Simple Matter (i.e. water, iron, dead wood):   Prime 2 + Matter 2
Create Simple Life (i.e. mold, grass, living wood):   Prime 2+ Life 3
Change spatial dimensions:   Correspondence 4
Cure Disease:   Life 2 (to reverse damage caused Life 4 or 3 for self)
Darksight:   Life 3 or Forces 1 or Matter 1 or Correspondence 1
Deflection:   Entropy 3 or Forces 3 or Matter 3,
Detect Magick:   Prime 1
Disguise:   Life 3 (self) 4 (other) or Mind 3 (illusion)
Dispel Magic:   Prime 4 or the same spheres as the effect in place
Divination of Past & Future:   Time 2
Earthquake:   Forces 5 + Prime 2
Environment Protection:   Life 3 (self) Life 4 (other) or (Forces 3 or 4)
Explosion:   Forces 4 + Prime 2 + Matter 2
Farsight:   Correspondence 2
Fear/Calm: Mind 2
Fly/Levitate:   (Prime 2 + Forces 4)
Forget:   Mind 4 or Entropy 5
Growth/Shrink:   Life 4
Harm:   Life 4 or Entropy 4
Heal:   Life 3 (self) Life 4 (other) simple lifeforms Life 2
Hold the Door:   (Forces 4 + Prime 2) or Matter 3
Illusion:   (Prime2 + Forces) for holograms or Mind 3 for hallucinations
Intangibility:   Spirit 3 or (Life 5 + Matter3) or Correspondence 4
Invisibility:   Forces 2 or Mind 3 (illusion) or Correspondence 4
Light: Forces 2 or in pitch black (Forces 3 + Prime 3)
Locate:    Correspondence 2 + Life/Matter/Mind/Spirit 1 depending on quarry
Luck/Jinx:   Entropy 2
Obscure (i.e. darken):   Forces 2 or Entropy3
Paralyse:   Mind 4 or Life 4 or Time 4 or Entropy 4 or Forces 4 (gravity)
Passwall:   Matter 4 or Correspondence 4
Plane Shift:   Spirit 3 or 5 depending on the destination.
Protection from Heat:   Forces 2 or Entropy 3
Protection from Cold :   Prime 2+Forces 3
Protection from Wind:   Entropy 3 or Forces 4
Protection from Electricity:   Entropy 3 or Forces 2
Puppet:   Mind 4
Quickness:   Life 3 (self) 4 (other) or Time 3
Read Minds:   Mind 3
Remove Poison:   (Life 1+Matter 3) or (Life 1+Matter 1+Correspondence 4)
Resist Elements:   Life 3 (self) or Life 4 (others) but Life 5 may be required
Shape Change:   Life 5
Shatter/Break machine:   Matter 3 or Entropy 3
Shapechange object:   Matter 3
Short Circuit:   Forces 2 or Entropy 3
Silence:   Forces 2 or Entropy 3
See invisible: Any Sphere at 1
See Spirits:   Spirit 1
Slow   Time: 3 or Life 4 or Entropy 4 or Forces 4 (gravity)
Sleep or Stun:    Mind 2 or Life 4 simple lifeforms Life 2
Speak/Read Languages:   Mind 1
Seak to the Dead:   Spirit 1
Send Dreams and Nightmares:   (Mind 3+Correspondence 4) adding Time 2 for prophetic dreams or Spirit 1 for dreams of the spirit world.
Summoning/Gate:   Spirit 4 and/or Correspondence 4 possibly Spirit 5 and/or Correspondence 5 depending on what is being summoned.
Summon Spirit:   Spirit 2
Touch from distance:   Correspondence 4
Touch the Spirit: Spirit 2
Telekinesis:   (Prime 2 + Forces 4)
Teleport:   Correspondence 3 (self) 4(others)
Time Stop:   Time 5
Transmute substance:   Matter 4
Tune into Signals:   Forces 1 Mind 1 (Correspondence 2 for distant signals)
Wall Walking:   Forces 4 or Life 5
Zombie:   Spirit 2 (willing) or Spirit 4 (unwilling) the rest being done by the spirit.
Water Breathing:   Matter 4 or Life 4
Water Walking:   Forces 4

I am aware of the M20 but this is just going from the first Mage MtA 1e

That looks a lot like the list they included in Mage 20 Core (which did clarify a number of things, like not needing prime for telekinesis or flight and both of those only needing rank 2 to move a couple hundred pounds or so... rank 4 is in the moving a plane territory).

Personally, I like how elegant the magic system actually is (and the M20 switch from individual foci to a unified focus (consisting of paradigm, practice and props was a huge improvement... as was mythic threads/hypernarrative replacing the role of specialty foci on the difficulty chart). I condensed the whole thing down onto a single sheet as one of my GM and Player references and it works fantastically.

I get that its not everyone's bag of chips, but I've been able to GM (not Storyteller, GM) the same setting virtually non-stop for nearly a quarter century now and have never had a shortage of players so what I'm doing with it must have some appeal.

Quote from: Chris24601;1038381That looks a lot like the list they included in Mage 20 Core (which did clarify a number of things, like not needing prime for telekinesis or flight and both of those only needing rank 2 to move a couple hundred pounds or so... rank 4 is in the moving a plane territory).

It may well do, at least without all my spelling mistakes and failue to alphabetise correctly. I couldn't say because I didn't buy M20 because it was too expensive for an update of a game I already have two editions of.

I just whipped that up this morning from a Savage Worlds power list and a browse on old B/X spell lists.

I worked with the 1e of the game because I can't bear the look of the later versions of the game.:eek:

Oh good! Yet another version/edition/branding/etc... of vampire!

It's not like the product line isn't a confusing clusterfuck as it is.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1038340Hey, Mage: The Ascension 1e and 2e were fucking awesome!

Pundit, your justifications for your hate-on for White Wolf only applies to them in the Revised Era onward. In the early 1990's, White Wolf was based as fuck.

No, it was shit. Mage was especially shit with it's ultra-elitist views (something that in some sense every WW game had, but mage literally presented science and technology as the bad guys; along with all of modern civilization, basically).

Quote from: RPGPundit;1038667No, it was shit. Mage was especially shit with it's ultra-elitist views (something that in some sense every WW game had, but mage literally presented science and technology as the bad guys; along with all of modern civilization, basically).

The Virtual Adepts would prove your argument bullshit.

The enemy wasn't technology or science... it was a faceless non-governmental organization that had tendrils in every level of government and had been subverting society in their effort to turn everyone into cogs in a One-World Government machine for the last hundred years. Their factions literally included one called the New World Order whose methods included domestic spying, abduction and brainwashing the masses with propaganda. Others had the express goals of controlling the masses through drugs and healthcare and eugenics, or through the economy and forcing a switch to an entirely plastic-based economy so they could track every transaction you make and open borders for cheap labor.

How is that enemy NOT a fictionalized version the Leftists you so loathe and despise?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1038667No, it was shit. Mage was especially shit with it's ultra-elitist views (something that in some sense every WW game had, but mage literally presented science and technology as the bad guys; along with all of modern civilization, basically).

It could be (and probably was) played that way by people with such a mindset but I doubt that was the authors' intent (The Intentional Fallacy notwithstanding). Personally, I believe that the Technocracy was originally intended to represent an Orwellian Dystopia  that was a road to Hell paved with the best of intentions (the Englightenment).

In the original scenario, Loom of Fate, neither the Technocracy nor the Traditions can be said to be the "good guys".  In fact the conflict is more based on the Moorcockian themes of Law and Chaos

The orientation of Mage was largely that the world is evil because you don't get to have the special-power elites doing whatever the fuck they want while everyone else lives like worthless peasants.