Quote from: Rhedyn;1037580Are you saying I am condemning people (by saying some) or are you talking about others?

Others. I try not to use loaded terms like "the SJWs", but avoiding those terms seems to be making my posts confusing. Sorry about that.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1037421I have said this before, and I'll say it again, Tabletop gaming shouldn't be about sex, it should be about gaming. All the folks that are getting that confused have some problems or hangups about sex, and are unable to properly channel their sexual energy. They insist on bringing it to the gaming table with them. Some people, ...myself included, find that raw unchanneled energy in a gaming environment offensive.  

You're entitled to you opinion. I don't agree with it but if its want you want to enforce at your tables/games that cool.  I don't think different outlooks are objectively wrong or somehow deviant on indicative of mental or social issues. If people want to include sex and sexuality in their gaming all power to them. If people hook up at a gaming con, a social gathering, I don't see what's wrong with that as it happens at every other social event I have heard of including church rallies.

Being an overbearing asshole about it is a real thing and its not just men but the idea its just flat out improper or wrong somehow is just not something I can get behind.

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1037466Here are a list of games with overtly sexual and/or romantic themes.

Blue Rose, written by Jeremy Crawford

It Was a Mutual Decision written by Hannah Shaffer

Monsterheats written by Avery Alder aka Joe Mcdaldno

All of these game feature romance and/or seduction as an integral part of their game.

In fact the last in the list features a "sex move" which is triggered when they have sex with somebody and moreover a PC may roll to turn on/seduce any other character, including other PCs.

And it does not seem 100% consensual, either: you don't get to choose what turns you on, and because "Monsterhearts is a game about the confusion that arises when your body and your social world start changing without your permission

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1037466It must be a coincidence that all three authors could be accurately described as SJW.

These seem odd games to write and promote during this current climate.

Blue Rose does not belong on this list. It uses the word "romantic" in the title, but that refers to the subgenre of fantasy worlds that it emulates - i.e. fantasy authors like Mercedes Lackey and Diane Duane rather than J.R.R. Tolkien and R.E. Howard. There is nothing in the game (at least in True20 edition) that focuses play on PC romantic relations.

Also, It Was a Mutual Decision is by Ron Edwards of Adept Press. Hannah Shaffer is a game designer who makes several other games ("Damn the Man, Save the Music!", Questlandia, and 14 Days), but none of them seem romance-themed. Her website is http://makebigthings.com/

I've played some Blue Rose about a half-dozen times, as well as Monsterhearts and some other romance-themed games a little more. Note that there is a random roll in Monsterhearts for what turns you on - which means the player doesn't control what turns the character on. However, that doesn't mean that sexual actions among PCs are non-consensual. It's possible, but that's not part of the turn on mechanic. I'd say that the authors are definitely liberal, but I'm not sure that SJW is accurate - though liberal and SJW are synonymous to some people, so it's a subjective question.  

There are a bunch of others as well. Off the top of my head -

Emily Care Boss' trio of games Breaking the Ice, Shooting the Moon, and Under My Skin are all romance themed.

Some more recent-ish Kickstarter projects include -

Good Society: A Jane Austen Roleplaying Game https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/259750074/good-society-a-jane-austen-roleplaying-game

Star-Crossed: The Two-Player Game of Forbidden Love https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bullypulpitgames/star-crossed-the-two-player-game-of-forbidden-love

Quote from: Rhedyn;1037547As a male virgin who has so little motivation to pursue the opposite sex that if it wasn't for explicit content I would wonder if I was asexual, I find the idea that a single woman's word should be believed and end careers to be terrifying.

I have this odd perspective that women are just like men in that some of them are total shit-bags and would totally lie once to remove a rival from the work place or industry and these cited statistics and studies don't negate the sickening idea that destroying the lives of some innocent men is fine if most the ones targeted actually did do something.

Now SPF did something inappropriate in a work space (conventions are work spaces for RPG authors), damaged his brand, and deserves to be fired by his own admission.
That doesn't mean we should give half the population unquestioned trust and power over the other half of the population (it should be obviously stupid).

Women are no less shitty than men but the power structure still is tilted heavily toward men.

What you do not seem to grasp is that one woman making an accusation does not end the career of the man. By not dismissing the accusation, in a corporate environment can get investigated and dealt with. The number of false accusations is very small and the long history of complaints being ignored is real.

Like I said, I too had a naive view on this until I actually had to deal with it as part of my job and realized that I was naive and that not treating the accusations as real and believing them simply allowed assholes to keep workikgmat my company.

It is a real slippery slope to extrapolate some huge disaster based on one accusation. It really does not happen. In a corporate environment such things are investigated (usually the accused goes on paid leave that is not explained to anyone). In the case of small companies and conventions, those resources just do not exist.

This is not a court of law and innocent until proven guilty is not required and no company will run into an issue for firing someone is there is any credibility to the accusation.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1037601It is a real slippery slope to extrapolate some huge disaster based on one accusation. It really does not happen.

The Duke Lacross case and the Rolling Stones case say it does happen. And it took people with money to expose both.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1037601What you do not seem to grasp is that one woman making an accusation does not end the career of the man.

http://www.kansas.com/news/local/crime/article122429824.html

Quote from: jhkim;1037590It Was a Mutual Decision is by Ron Edwards of Adept Press. Hannah Shaffer is a game designer who makes several other games ("Damn the Man, Save the Music!", Questlandia, and 14 Days), but none of them seem romance-themed. Her website is http://makebigthings.com/

Thanks for the correction. My bad.

Quote from: jhkim;1037590I'd say that the authors are definitely liberal, but I'm not sure that SJW is accurate -

Well Jeremy Crawford sure quacks like a duck and Joe Mcdaldno/Avery Alder is the real deal.

Quote from: jhkim;1037590though liberal and SJW are synonymous to some people, so it's a subjective question.  

Not to this leftie.

Point is that you would be a fool to play "romantic" games that feature Player on Player flirting in character at a con in the current climate.

Quote from: Ras Algethi;1037603The Duke Lacross case and the Rolling Stones case say it does happen. And it took people with money to expose both.

And those were public in the press and revealed to be false.

The typical corporate case is not reported anywhere and HR usually does not reveal any details.

The two cases you cited are the rare cases where there was a false accusation and one of them was more a reporter problem (Rolling Stone) than anything else.

There are not women routinely making false accusations and it is not costless for them to make an accusation in the first place. In theory we are all gamers here and we should understand rules and probabilities. If we can absorb all the details of a made up background we should be able to parse the statistics for these types of cases.

Quote from: CarlD.;1037589Being an overbearing asshole about it is a real thing and its not just men but the idea its just flat out improper or wrong somehow is just not something I can get behind.

That's because you haven't unknowingly and unwillingly been around other staff at conventions that have been convicted of rape, and then had to deal with the fallout of all that without somehow destroying the convention, ...like I have. I'm not talking about anything recent, by the way.  Once you have seen the damage one of these dirtball losers can do, and you know the kind of permissive environment they are attracted to, you wouldn't be so excited to create an environment that draws real sexual predators like bees to honey.

It is improper and wrong to focus on sex, and sexual power as a game, in public, or at a gaming convention. If you want to do it in your own home, or in a private club or whatever, or setup your own special gaming sex romp conventions, be my guest. Exposing boardgamers and tabletop gamers to that is unconscionable, for the very reasons I mentioned in this post.

Quote from: jhkim;1037590Blue Rose does not belong on this list. It uses the word "romantic" in the title, but that refers to the subgenre of fantasy worlds that it emulates - i.e. fantasy authors like Mercedes Lackey and Diane Duane rather than J.R.R. Tolkien and R.E. Howard. There is nothing in the game (at least in True20 edition) that focuses play on PC romantic relations.

Agreed, Blue Rose doesn't belong on any black list, it's a game about Romance, Romantics, and the age of Chivalry. Anyone that is not playing it like that, is playing it wrong, just in order to smear Green Ronin.

Quote from: GameDaddy;1037620Agreed, Blue Rose doesn't belong on any black list,

Black list?

Quote from: Mike the Mage;1037617Point is that you would be a fool to play "romantic" games that feature Player on Player flirting in character at a con in the current climate.

I don't think so. Several friends of mine played in a run of Under My Skin (the larp version) at DunDraCon this past February. Everyone seemed pretty positive about it, and had a good time. The organizers had some ground rules about people expressing their comfort levels and how to opt out, and they seemed to work pretty well. Since there are a bunch of people playing in the game and thus observing the interactions, it would be difficult for a fabricated accusation to get far. Plus there are clear rules about opting out of uncomfortable situations.

People I know who run such games don't seem to have any concerns about the current climate, in part because they have always had some concerns that romance in games could be awkward/uncomfortable for either women or men. Long before the #MeToo movement, people handling very personal stuff in games have had a bunch of conversations about how to handle issues maturely. They have always made sure that everyone is clear about their lines and have rules to follow.

Quote from: Myrdin Potter;1037601Women are no less shitty than men but the power structure still is tilted heavily toward men.

What you do not seem to grasp is that one woman making an accusation does not end the career of the man. By not dismissing the accusation, in a corporate environment can get investigated and dealt with. The number of false accusations is very small and the long history of complaints being ignored is real.

Like I said, I too had a naive view on this until I actually had to deal with it as part of my job and realized that I was naive and that not treating the accusations as real and believing them simply allowed assholes to keep workikgmat my company.

It is a real slippery slope to extrapolate some huge disaster based on one accusation. It really does not happen. In a corporate environment such things are investigated (usually the accused goes on paid leave that is not explained to anyone). In the case of small companies and conventions, those resources just do not exist.

This is not a court of law and innocent until proven guilty is not required and no company will run into an issue for firing someone is there is any credibility to the accusation.

The power dynamic only comes into play if it is a manager doing something to an underling. The sexes of those involved are irrelevant.

If men inherently intimidate women by virtue of pure physical strength, then that means we should be better arming individuals so such things are irrelevant not blindly trust the first person to claim victim. Because once that is accepted as OK, it will be abused. We aren't there yet (women do fear being blacklisted if they make an abuse claim, which is probably entirely true), but people are pushing for it.

Quote from: jhkim;1037640I don't think so. Several friends of mine played in a run of Under My Skin (the larp version) at DunDraCon this past February. Everyone seemed pretty positive about it, and had a good time. The organizers had some ground rules about people expressing their comfort levels and how to opt out, and they seemed to work pretty well. Since there are a bunch of people playing in the game and thus observing the interactions, it would be difficult for a fabricated accusation to get far. Plus there are clear rules about opting out of uncomfortable situations.

People I know who run such games don't seem to have any concerns about the current climate, in part because they have always had some concerns that romance in games could be awkward/uncomfortable for either women or men. Long before the #MeToo movement, people handling very personal stuff in games have had a bunch of conversations about how to handle issues maturely. They have always made sure that everyone is clear about their lines and have rules to follow.

What is Under my Skin?

Quote from: jhkim;1037640People I know who run such games don't seem to have any concerns about the current climate, in part because they have always had some concerns that romance in games could be awkward/uncomfortable for either women or men. Long before the #MeToo movement, people handling very personal stuff in games have had a bunch of conversations about how to handle issues maturely. They have always made sure that everyone is clear about their lines and have rules to follow.

Maybe I wasn't clear: I was talking about playing such game at cons with players who you have just met.