Quote from: CarlD.;1034110Oh, no,  I understood that's what you were talking about I've haven't found that to  be necessary or desirable step myself but I can where it might be in some situations. Different experiences and all.

Well, it was kinda obvious in one of the last campaigns:).
One PC achieved all her goals, or almost, and seldom even got hurt. Another gained much XP and was a killing machine by the end, but achieved little of her goals before the campaign ended. And she's the reason I remembered the healing rules by heart.
And then I realized the former had forgotten to spend her XP after the first dozen of sessions or so. She was, figuratively speaking, playing Batman in a team with Hulk, and outplayed Hulk without being hurt;).
I admit it might not be relevant to all groups, but that's where I'm coming from.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1033820For DC 15 to be easy, your mid-level character bonus needs a modifier of at least 12 (failing 1 in 5 attempts isn't easy!). Master skill level would be +15. So you have to have rapidly rising bonuses like in 3.5. And, of course, you still have the problem that low-level characters aren't particularly "good" at anything. And if Master is only +15, there are no significant differentiators between journeyman and master, so master probably needs a bonus more like +25, and now we're back into "roll a d20, add a number bigger than 20" absurdity.



Right, you need to start introducing ad-hoc rulings like in 5e. Kind of a band-aid IMO, and it's not been received that warmly by many of the fans.

A dice pool system has neither of those problems. You can get significant distinctions among all skill levels without shooting numbers to the moon or ad-hoc rulings.

It sounds like you're defining "easy" here as something anyone who has moderate level of training should be able to accomplish almost ALL the time (assuming no outside complications).

So in a roleplaying game, the right way to do that is to say stuff like "anyone with training should always know/succeed-at this, anyone without the skill can't/has-to-roll-it".

That's not ad-hoc, that's the direct and obvious method to handle how you do it. I mean, if you have "horsemanship" you should have to roll every time you get on a horse on a basic ride, right?

It sure sounds like you're just trying to prove something you're determined to make into a problem that isn't actually a problem.

Quote from: AsenRG;1033887That's how your book says PCs are supposed to start as well. But they can't choose the class unless they'd rolled 9+ in the controlling attribute. Why can the NPCs:)?

Seriously, dumbass? Because NPCs don't roll attributes. They're created by the GM and have stats assigned to fit the character.

QuoteOnly in degree;).

It's like saying "the guy who could theoretically claim his alcohol purchases as a business expense on his taxes" is exactly like "the guy who can steal $4.2 Million by manipulating tax law".

Quote from: AsenRG;1034242Well, it was kinda obvious in one of the last campaigns:).
One PC achieved all her goals, or almost, and seldom even got hurt. Another gained much XP and was a killing machine by the end, but achieved little of her goals before the campaign ended. And she's the reason I remembered the healing rules by heart.
And then I realized the former had forgotten to spend her XP after the first dozen of sessions or so. She was, figuratively speaking, playing Batman in a team with Hulk, and outplayed Hulk without being hurt;).
I admit it might not be relevant to all groups, but that's where I'm coming from.

Understandable...

A character creation system I really like, that is a slightly different way of doing point buy, is Agone's system (I know there are several who would disagree, but I'll explain).

I like how it balances points among Attributes, Skills, Spells, and Advantages, so that you are in many ways "forced" to spread out your points to some degree, since you cant just spend everything on your focus. After maxing it out, you usually have points left over to buy up your other attributes and skills, to flesh out your character, instead of being able to dump those points into extra spells or advantages as you can in other point buy systems.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1034586Seriously, dumbass? Because NPCs don't roll attributes. They're created by the GM and have stats assigned to fit the character.

Did you forget the post you were arguing with, Pundit:)? Let me refresh your memory.

QuoteWhich is its own share of issues when it comes to worldbuilding. Come on, Pundit, what happens to Cymri or Scotman guys who are born in the society with no way out, but don't get 9+ on the connected attribute?

"When it comes to worldbuilding" is the keyword. One of my first requirements is that I should be able to create all the NPCs by the character generation rules for PCs.
I can do that in GURPS, with point-buy. I can do it in Traveller with random lifepaths. You're telling me that I can't do that in your game.
That basically confirms my statement. (And yes, having to amend my usual worldbuilding procedures is a problem, of course. I can do that, but you have to persuade me that I'm gaining something from it).

QuoteIt's like saying "the guy who could theoretically claim his alcohol purchases as a business expense on his taxes" is exactly like "the guy who can steal $4.2 Million by manipulating tax law".

Yes, except for the word exactly. They're both being dishonest, but one of them is much more capable.
Which is a difference of degree, not of quality.
The difference between knowing more about the reach and shieldwall rules, and having memorized the GURPS: Martial Arts supplement is also one of degree, not quality;).

Quote from: CarlD.;1035309Understandable...

Yeah, I realize other people might never encounter the need for this option.

Quote from: AsenRG;1035522Did you forget the post you were arguing with, Pundit:)? Let me refresh your memory.

"When it comes to worldbuilding" is the keyword. One of my first requirements is that I should be able to create all the NPCs by the character generation rules for PCs.
I can do that in GURPS, with point-buy. I can do it in Traveller with random lifepaths. You're telling me that I can't do that in your game.
That basically confirms my statement. (And yes, having to amend my usual worldbuilding procedures is a problem, of course. I can do that, but you have to persuade me that I'm gaining something from it).

You can do it in GURPS, sure. It's probably even part of the Autistic Super-Fun Time.
You can't do it in Traveller. You can't say "I'm going to make an NPC who is a 50 year old ex-marine turned merchant" if the lifepath has him failing to enter the service. Which is the same stupid argument you're trying to make here, that somehow if you want to make a master Thief NPC in Dark Albion you need to roll 3d6 in order for that NPC and what would you do if you rolled less than 9 in DEX?

But here's the thing: that's a fucking retarded way of making NPCs. What would be the point of that?
Your "first requirement" is moronic. You're not "Worldbuilding", you're obsessing about mechanics.

QuoteYes, except for the word exactly. They're both being dishonest, but one of them is much more capable.
Which is a difference of degree, not of quality.
The difference between knowing more about the reach and shieldwall rules, and having memorized the GURPS: Martial Arts supplement is also one of degree, not quality;).

I don't give a fuck about that, as it's irrelevant to the topic at hand. What you're arguing has nothing to do with what you're talking about, doesn't help your argument or hurt mine. It just shows how fucking incoherent you are.

The only thing that matters in terms of the discussion at hand is not some demagoguery about whether the 'degree' is the same or not, it's what the practical EFFECTS of a system being prone to abuse is.
And in terms of EFFECTS, a system where the worst the worst rules-optimization abuse that can happen is that a dude knows how to attack from the second row in a corridor is MILLIONS of times less shitty than a system where rules-optimization virtually allows them to do anything.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1035762Which is the same stupid argument you're trying to make here, that somehow if you want to make a master Thief NPC in Dark Albion you need to roll 3d6 in order for that NPC and what would you do if you rolled less than 9 in DEX?

But here's the thing: that's a fucking retarded way of making NPCs. What would be the point of that?
Your "first requirement" is moronic. You're not "Worldbuilding", you're obsessing about mechanics.

I believe the main desire is to make NPCs that are, more or less, balanced against the party.

In that regard, it is usually easier to approximate that balance if the system uses a means of character building that provides a greater degree of control over important aspects of a character (like attributes).

while i do like some random elements in character creation (I really like the Fate Spreads in 7th sea for example), having it determine important aspects of a character, like attributes, obviously makes building NPCs impractical using that system if you want to make specific characters and have them balanced against your PCs. Point buy systems tend to allow for this to a much greater degree of specificity.

when you have to guess what is fair by plugging in attributes, it often makes building those characters more difficult. Also, having some restraint in building something tends to encourage a more inventive attitude towards making that concept work, like choosing options you might not otherwise have considered.

So its possible to make balanced interesting and interactive characters that aren't random..and with an effectively unlimited "point budget" but only if you're a GM? If players do the same with a limited budget included why the default assumption that it will lead to abuse? That's the gist I'm getting from some posts.

I'll say again, any system or set of mechanics can be abused or can be use to have fun implementing player intelligence and creativity be it from utilizing equipment bonuses, feat, skill, mechanical synergy, etc or constructing the character (neither of which are mutually exclusive or the only points they can occur in a system). Why exploiting equipment or other mechanics which can be OOC as Hell, frankly is more corrupt  and/or than using a creation system to make a character or why that's somehow "cheating" and a source of unavoidable meta game driven issues, when gms are expected to select attributes and create characters to suit their role in the world or scenario instead of just a preference (as I asked in the thread subject) is an oddly combative stance to take.

Quote from: CarlD.;1035775So its possible to make balanced interesting and interactive characters that aren't random..and with an effectively unlimited "point budget" but only if you're a GM? If players do the same with a limited budget included why the default assumption that it will lead to abuse? That's the gist I'm getting from some posts.

The reason is because Pundit is projecting what he would do onto every other player.

HE would abuse a point-buy system to dominate play in the game over newer players and presumes everyone else will too. He's a small man who bullies others to make himself feel big. He doesn't get that not everyone else has his psychological hangups and so don't have to play games like he does in order to enjoy themselves.

He doesn't comprehend that there are far more effective routes to having your ego stroked than hogging the spotlight in-game so that everyone else resents you. For example, you could instead have everyone at the table appreciate and respect your knowledge and command of the rules by helping them make equally effective characters in the system.

He's just the flip-side of the snowflake storygamers he so detests; an intolerant bully attacking anyone who doesn't adhere to his own personal One-True-Way. If you don't play make believe exactly like he says you should, you're an incompetent mouth-breathing retard.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1035762You can do it in GURPS, sure. It's probably even part of the Autistic Super-Fun Time.

No idea, I'm not on the spectrum - but glad you agree you can do it in GURPS.

QuoteYou can't do it in Traveller.

Bullshit:). Been there, done that.

QuoteYou can't say "I'm going to make an NPC who is a 50 year old ex-marine turned merchant" if the lifepath has him failing to enter the service.

No, Pundit, I can. Maybe you can't, but that's not my problem. I have two different ways of doing that, for different goals;)!
1) I can estimate the odds of the dice rolling this way, and thus derive what's the likelihood of a merchant being ex-marine. The reasons why I'd do that should be obvious. Again: I'm talking worldbuilding, not making an NPC.
2) I can just generate 1001 characters automatically, prioritizing Marine and Merchant careers, and pick one of the 50-years-old ones who passed through both careers, if I need an NPC.
And before you say there's no way you should generate 1001 NPCs, I present to you the 1001 characters automated generator:D! Takes me all of a few clicks, and gives me whole organisations with NPCs.
Here's your Marine-gone-Merchant, I generated 100 characters.
Crewman Chua-guo Roshan (Male Human) 977365 Age 50
Marine(3), Physician(0), Merchant(3)   Cr11000
Admin-0 Battle Dress-0 Bay Weapons-0 Comms-0 Demolitions-0 Electronics-1 Energy Rifle-0 Jack o' Trades-1 Medicine-1 Piercing Weapons-2 Shotgun-1 Social Sciences-0 Spinal Mounts-1 Steward-1 Zero-G-1

QuoteWhich is the same stupid argument you're trying to make here, that somehow if you want to make a master Thief NPC in Dark Albion you need to roll 3d6 in order for that NPC and what would you do if you rolled less than 9 in DEX?

But here's the thing: that's a fucking retarded way of making NPCs. What would be the point of that?
Your "first requirement" is moronic. You're not "Worldbuilding", you're obsessing about mechanics.

...Pundit, do you really confuse worldbuilding (i.e. creating the setting and adapting it the rules to it) with creating NPCs? Really?
I have a better opinion of you.
As to "what's the point" - adapting the setting to the rules or (usually) vice versa is part of how I prepare my sessions. If it helps me, it's not moronic, because it's useful to me, when running my games.
From your rules, I can only make the conclusion "circa 30% of all Cimri and Scots Men aren't really Cimri and Scots Men, because they got 8- in the controlling attribute". Not a really useful conclusion, I'm telling you, unless I'm running "Medieval Authentic Discworld-style"!

QuoteI don't give a fuck about that, as it's irrelevant to the topic at hand. What you're arguing has nothing to do with what you're talking about, doesn't help your argument or hurt mine. It just shows how fucking incoherent you are.

You started arguing with my "difference of degrees" example, Pundit. Which, as I said in the post, was deliberately an extreme example, just to show that some measure of impact remains at both of extremums. Or did you forget that post, too?

QuoteThe only thing that matters in terms of the discussion at hand is not some demagoguery about whether the 'degree' is the same or not, it's what the practical EFFECTS of a system being prone to abuse is.
And in terms of EFFECTS, a system where the worst the worst rules-optimization abuse that can happen is that a dude knows how to attack from the second row in a corridor is MILLIONS of times less shitty than a system where rules-optimization virtually allows them to do anything.

Are you, like, serious?
I give you an example where I say I'm deliberately giving an extreme example, and you try to discard it because the differences are too extreme?
...well, that's the fucking point of the example, duh!
If you're not aware why, when discussing a principle (like "rules mastery will have an impact regardless of how much customisation the rules allow") it's useful to check the extremums...well, you should go back to 8th grade and learn the damn reason!

Quote from: CarlD.;1035775So its possible to make balanced interesting and interactive characters that aren't random..and with an effectively unlimited "point budget" but only if you're a GM?

...of course no, not only if you're the GM. Where did I say that only the GM can do that? (And for that matter, I've never said the GM shouldn't make random characters - quite the opposite, I create those all the time).

Or do you mean Pundit's statements?

QuoteIf players do the same with a limited budget included why the default assumption that it will lead to abuse? That's the gist I'm getting from some posts.

Ask Pundit, not me:p!

Quote from: Chris24601;1035846The reason is because Pundit is projecting what he would do onto every other player.

HE would abuse a point-buy system to dominate play in the game over newer players and presumes everyone else will too. He's a small man who bullies others to make himself feel big. He doesn't get that not everyone else has his psychological hangups and so don't have to play games like he does in order to enjoy themselves.

He doesn't comprehend that there are far more effective routes to having your ego stroked than hogging the spotlight in-game so that everyone else resents you. For example, you could instead have everyone at the table appreciate and respect your knowledge and command of the rules by helping them make equally effective characters in the system.

He's just the flip-side of the snowflake storygamers he so detests; an intolerant bully attacking anyone who doesn't adhere to his own personal One-True-Way. If you don't play make believe exactly like he says you should, you're an incompetent mouth-breathing retard.

OK, that's probably untrue...but the image of Pundit as a "reverse Luke Crane"* is deeply entertaining:D!

Also, I most certainly don't play exactly like Pundit says I should!

*The author of the Burning Wheel RPG who explained that he made his rules in a certain way because they should prevent his own bad tendencies when GMing.

Quote from: AsenRG;1035864...of course no, not only if you're the GM. Where did I say that only the GM can do that? (And for that matter, I've never said the GM shouldn't make random characters - quite the opposite, I create those all the time).

I quoted you by mistake. I'm sorry if I looked like I was putting words in your mouth.

Quote from: CarlD.;1035881I quoted you by mistake. I'm sorry if I looked like I was putting words in your mouth.

No problem, it happens:).

Quote from: CarlD.;1035775So its possible to make balanced interesting and interactive characters that aren't random..and with an effectively unlimited "point budget" but only if you're a GM? If players do the same with a limited budget included why the default assumption that it will lead to abuse? That's the gist I'm getting from some posts.

Yes. That's because the Player agenda and the GM agenda are different. The GM (unless he's a shit GM) isn't making an NPC with min-maxing in mind, it's not in his best interest; while it is a part of the player's own best interest to make the most effective character the rules will allow him to get away with.

Quote from: Chris24601;1035846The reason is because Pundit is projecting what he would do onto every other player.

I think the one projecting here is you.