Quote from: cranebump;1033189"Magic shops." Doesn't seem like resources devoted to the arcane would be available on shop shelves. You gotta figure they'd be ransacked on opening night (if not before). This is especially ridiculous if the GM paints magic as some dangerous, deadly, practice. If that's so, you'd think it be strictly regulated.

For me it all depends on what type of magic is for sale. A shop with some potions, low-level scrolls and maybe a +1 weapon for sale is fine by me. A store with 50,000 gold pieces on hand to buy that vorpal sword to add to their set of four is not.

Magic shops - if it's trivial stuff like the 5e Common Items, fine.

I know a thing that bugs me! Dragons as god-wizard-lizards who hide behind lairs of magical defences and scores of minions. That's Evil Wizard behaviour, that's not a dragon. I want powerful, arrogant dragons who don't hide away. I want dragons like in the stories, not dragons who are Machiavellian master manipulators and plotters. Dragons should be like forces of nature, in complete contrast to frail but crafty humans.

Quote from: S'mon;1033250Magic shops - if it's trivial stuff like the 5e Common Items, fine.

I know a thing that bugs me! Dragons as god-wizard-lizards who hide behind lairs of magical defences and scores of minions. That's Evil Wizard behaviour, that's not a dragon. I want powerful, arrogant dragons who don't hide away. I want dragons like in the stories, not dragons who are Machiavellian master manipulators and plotters. Dragons should be like forces of nature, in complete contrast to frail but crafty humans.

The dragon as master-plotter is probably due to the fact that, ever since video games with even a hint of plot started to be a thing, dragons started being used as the final boss type fight in them. Hell, you can probably even peg Super Mario Brothers as an early instance, but certainly by Dragon's Lair and Final Fantasy on the notion of a dragon either being the end boss or at least well, the Dragon (penultimate boss or at least a mini-boss), of any fantasy game. Hell, even sci-fi franchises like Metroid used defeating a dragon as the gateway to the final fight (i.e. Ridley; who is not just a dragon, but a space pirate dragon and later a cyborg space pirate dragon).

Over time its back-flowed into source material for all those fantasy video games as players who loved those games growing up became game line developers for D&D and now, here we are.

Add to which, in most editions of D&D any moderately powerful dragon is also a shapeshifter.

Quote from: Kiero;1033257Add to which, in most editions of D&D any moderately powerful dragon is also a shapeshifter.

Only the good aligned metallic dragons.

Quote from: S'mon;1033265Only the good aligned metallic dragons.

Some of the more powerful evil ones can usually cast spells as well, and can also turn into human shape.  Although technically, certain Alignments preclude active planning and deception, like the psychopathic Chaotic Evil.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1033269Some of the more powerful evil ones can usually cast spells as well, and can also turn into human shape.  Although technically, certain Alignments preclude active planning and deception, like the psychopathic Chaotic Evil.

I guess that ties in to my point - I don't want dragons who are really wizards.

Speaking, magic using dragons should be the rare exception, not the norm.  I can accept the very occasioanl shapechanged gold dragon, but have always considered gold dragons to be the rarest of the dragons too.

My biggest pet peeve with dragons in D&D is that are often cheapened. Instead of being Smaug the Golden or Fafnir or Vermithrax Pejorative, they are just a big pile of EXP sitting on a mound of treasure. I want an encounter with a dragon to be memorable. When they are just another entry in teh monster manual and there is a black dragon in every swamp, a tree in every forest, a white on every snowy mountain, etc they lose something.

The more powerful metallic dragons are more like demigods than wizards.

Quote from: S'mon;1033250I know a thing that bugs me! Dragons as god-wizard-lizards who hide behind lairs of magical defences and scores of minions. That's Evil Wizard behaviour, that's not a dragon. I want powerful, arrogant dragons who don't hide away. I want dragons like in the stories, not dragons who are Machiavellian master manipulators and plotters. Dragons should be like forces of nature, in complete contrast to frail but crafty humans.

I get that, but there's a mechanical difficulty.  In AD&D at least, dragons don't actually have the hit points of a force of nature, they have the hit points of a glass cannon.  Their breath weapon can take out a party, but a party that can bring their own spells and weapons to bear can take them out pretty quick.  I imagine DMs and adventure writers, not wanting dragons to go down like chumps, started looking at tactics and perimeter warning ideas.  The motivation is broadly in line with your own, even if the execution conflicts.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1033277The more powerful metallic dragons are more like demigods than wizards.

More powerful wizards are more like demigods than adventurers, too;).

Quote from: Dave R;1033279I get that, but there's a mechanical difficulty.  In AD&D at least, dragons don't actually have the hit points of a force of nature, they have the hit points of a glass cannon.  Their breath weapon can take out a party, but a party that can bring their own spells and weapons to bear can take them out pretty quick.  I imagine DMs and adventure writers, not wanting dragons to go down like chumps, started looking at tactics and perimeter warning ideas.  The motivation is broadly in line with your own, even if the execution conflicts.

Running Classic D&D level 1-19 for a few years recently, it was clear to me that normal ("small" in Classic) dragons are on the same power scale as griffins, manticores, chimerae and other such beasts, and should be treated as such. The problem is with designers who want to make them more than that. Classic added Large and Huge dragons with x1.5 and x2 hit dice, but 1e never had a solution.

I remember at least one article from an old Dragon magazine about giving dragons improved combat options to make them scarier. Wing buffet, rear foot kick and stomp, tail lash, and of course grab, fly and drop from altitude. I'm pretty sure it is a subject that has had many articles.

Dragons by the book and dragons as imagined don't really match well if you are imagining Godzilla and the rules are giving you Gadzuki.

Labyrinth Lord dragons have 6-11 hit dice as mature adults depending on type, adjustable by +/- 3 HD depending on age. They save as Fighters of level equal to their ht dice. Their scale are at least the equivalent of plate mail. Considering that a zero level "normal" man has 1/2 to 1 HD, dragons by the book are pretty impressive until the PC heroes come along.  I think we sometimes forget the "normal" man as a standard of comparison.

Quote from: Elfdart;1033203For me it all depends on what type of magic is for sale. A shop with some potions, low-level scrolls and maybe a +1 weapon for sale is fine by me. A store with 50,000 gold pieces on hand to buy that vorpal sword to add to their set of four is not.

I can see there being libraries (private ones, I imagine) where you can study up on spells. Makes sense. Potions strike me as medicinal, so yeah, that makes sense, too. I think you hit on it solidly with the 50K gp example. Tying it to economy makes it cost prohibitive (or makes some NPCs really rich arms dealers).:-)

Quote from: Chris24601;1033194To be fair, in a lot of earlier settings the "magic shop" wasn't a magic item supermarket like it is in newer settings.

Correct. That would be the one I was referring to--the video game type of shop.