Quote from: S'mon;1030237Not nearly enough detail; even less than Wilderlands.

There are some pretty intensely detailed maps out there: http://www.pandius.com/wbrklmet.html

Quote from: Larsdangly;1030407There are some pretty intensely detailed maps out there: http://www.pandius.com/wbrklmet.html

The problem with Pandius is that they take the Known World after it left behind being a West March style sandbox and became a full setting with FR level canon. Bruce Heard is great, but his Mystara is not as interesting as Moldvay's Known World.

I don't know anything about the setting canon blather; I never pay any attention to that stuff, other than useful details like how many knights commanded by the baron of such and such castle, etc. My point was just that the map itself is at the appropriate scale for a really juicy wilderlands sandbox. I think the game is enormously improved by having people approach wilderness travel in the same way they do dungeon exploration, with active player decision making and a large diversity of obstacles and hazards. a 1 mile per hex map is pretty good for that purpose (provided it is large enough that you don't walk off its edge in a couple of hours).

Quote from: Larsdangly;1030449I don't know anything about the setting canon blather; I never pay any attention to that stuff, other than useful details like how many knights commanded by the baron of such and such castle, etc. My point was just that the map itself is at the appropriate scale for a really juicy wilderlands sandbox. I think the game is enormously improved by having people approach wilderness travel in the same way they do dungeon exploration, with active player decision making and a large diversity of obstacles and hazards. a 1 mile per hex map is pretty good for that purpose (provided it is large enough that you don't walk off its edge in a couple of hours).

I recently ran a 2.5 year Karameikos campaign. The maps are nice but any sandboxing had to be created by me placing adventure sites. I was asking about pre-prepared sandbox campaigns with sites already detailed.

Quote from: S'mon;1030469I recently ran a 2.5 year Karameikos campaign. The maps are nice but any sandboxing had to be created by me placing adventure sites. I was asking about pre-prepared sandbox campaigns with sites already detailed.

Good point; what would be terrific is to combine the level of detail and effort found in these maps with a couple-hundred entry set of encounters and sites.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1030470Good point; what would be terrific is to combine the level of detail and effort found in these maps with a couple-hundred entry set of encounters and sites.

This Blog entry is interesting - http://beyondfomalhaut.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/blog-formless-wilderness.html

It seems to indicate that what I'm looking for doesn't really exist outside of old Fighting Fantasy gamebooks; in particular he calls out Scorpion Swamp, which was more sophisticated than the others since it allowed for backtracking and had separate "if you have been here already" sections.

Edit: There are adventure-level products like this, eg Vault of Larin Karr - which I made the mistake of running in 4e D&D; nowadays 5e D&D would have suited it much better. Nothing like a full 1-10 campaign though.

Doesn't Hellfrost and Hellfrost: Land of Fire count as this?
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Quote from: Greentongue;1030879Doesn't Hellfrost and Hellfrost: Land of Fire count as this?
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Could be. I don't know much about it. Anyone here seen the inside of that book?

Quote from: Haffrung;1029958Yes, I think Griffon Mountain fits the bill of a sandbox in a book. It really is odd that a similar setting book has never been published for D&D. Mini-campaigns like the Vault of Larin Karr and Ancient Kingdoms: Mesopotamia are the closest we get. Is there really no audience for a sandbox setting in a book?

I think its easier to make this kind of product for RQ as it is a game with a lower power curve than D&D. The steeper a games power curve, the more likely an entire sandbox campaign in a box is going to have parties encountering a lot of insta-kill or walkover enemies. Granted, not having perfectly balanced encounters is something that you want in a sandbox game, but 1-20th level D&D allows for some real extremes in that regard when outside of a structured dungeon.

With RQ, characters vary in their skill and magic, but they don't have the same kind of HP inflation.

I'm not saying it can't be done in D&D. I just can see why it isn't more commonplace as a product.

Quote from: S'mon;1030877This Blog entry is interesting - http://beyondfomalhaut.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/blog-formless-wilderness.html

It seems to indicate that what I'm looking for doesn't really exist outside of old Fighting Fantasy gamebooks; in particular he calls out Scorpion Swamp, which was more sophisticated than the others since it allowed for backtracking and had separate "if you have been here already" sections.

It doesn't even exist in old FF gamebooks, TBH.

I have tried to do something like this on two occasions - a supplement detailing a small playing area with its own adventure sites, hubs of civilisation, and underlying conflicts - but never got beyond a few bits and pieces, even though setting them up in play was actually pretty easy. Things just didn't happen the way I'd have preferred. This blog post is actually more relevant than the one you cited, describing the basic recipe for such a "stone soup" kind of mini-setting, as well as my outline for one of the projects that was never finished. The other one's described here.

I'm also trying to finally do something along these lines with my zine - ideally, by presenting material that's modular enough to stand on its own, but also to form a bigger picture if you put the pieces together. Maybe third time's the charm.

Quote from: Baulderstone;1030916I think its easier to make this kind of product for RQ as it is a game with a lower power curve than D&D. The steeper a games power curve, the more likely an entire sandbox campaign in a box is going to have parties encountering a lot of insta-kill or walkover enemies. Granted, not having perfectly balanced encounters is something that you want in a sandbox game, but 1-20th level D&D allows for some real extremes in that regard when outside of a structured dungeon.

With RQ, characters vary in their skill and magic, but they don't have the same kind of HP inflation.

I'm not saying it can't be done in D&D. I just can see why it isn't more commonplace as a product.

I feel like one of the fun things about this kind of sandbox setting is that the players' strategies and decisions are strongly influenced by the fact that they don't know whether they just stumbled across the entrance to B1 or S1. It really doesn't bother me when high level PC's raid merchant caravans or other vulnerable targets, or low level PC's stumble into a troll's lair and get eaten. That is just the setting coming to life with PC's as a natural part of it.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1030924I feel like one of the fun things about this kind of sandbox setting is that the players' strategies and decisions are strongly influenced by the fact that they don't know whether they just stumbled across the entrance to B1 or S1. It really doesn't bother me when high level PC's raid merchant caravans or other vulnerable targets, or low level PC's stumble into a troll's lair and get eaten. That is just the setting coming to life with PC's as a natural part of it.

I agree completely. I believe in the opposition to the players being based on what makes sense rather than what they can handle. I just think that when people design products for commercial sale, they tend to worry a little more about balance.

I'm just speculating on why there are so few products like this, not suggesting that there shouldn't be any. I'd love to see more giant sandbox products.

Quote from: Larsdangly;1030897Could be. I don't know much about it. Anyone here seen the inside of that book?

It is a well detailed setting with published adventures but no requirement to play those adventures.
There are plenty of adventure hooks everywhere or you can hang your own from the bones provided.
Lots of detail but plenty untouched because it is a huge setting.

You can find a lot of bits and pieces with some searches that will give a good feel for what it is.

It kinda requires Savage Worlds rules but could be mined for other systems, as with most settings.
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Quote from: Melan;1030917It doesn't even exist in old FF gamebooks, TBH.

I have tried to do something like this on two occasions - a supplement detailing a small playing area with its own adventure sites, hubs of civilisation, and underlying conflicts - but never got beyond a few bits and pieces, even though setting them up in play was actually pretty easy. Things just didn't happen the way I'd have preferred. This blog post is actually more relevant than the one you cited, describing the basic recipe for such a "stone soup" kind of mini-setting, as well as my outline for one of the projects that was never finished. The other one's described here.

I'm also trying to finally do something along these lines with my zine - ideally, by presenting material that's modular enough to stand on its own, but also to form a bigger picture if you put the pieces together. Maybe third time's the charm.

Very interesting, thank - the Queans Waste does seem like a particularly nice spot for a wilderness sandbox.

I guess the FF gamebooks are interesting because of the clear point-crawl structure, which tends to be obfuscated in published RPG materials. A real wilderness sandbox with the style of the Sorcery! series would be awesome.

Quote from: Psikerlord;1029951I'm not 100% across what West Marches means exactly (I thought it meant rotating PCs?), but Midlands Low Magic Sandbox Setting is similar to this; 6 isolated cities in a large wilderness. 50 adventure frameworks, many random encounter tables, etc.

Been going over this since it arrived yesterday. It kinda has the tools to create a West Marches type hexcrawl or pointcrawl sandbox, without being one. The 50 adventures for instance would need to be keyed to an in-game useable map so that the PCs can encounter them by travelling over the map. The only regional map I can find in the book seems purely indicative, not something that could be used to map journeys in play. It mentions more maps online somewhere which I've not googled for yet.

One thing about Ben Robbins' description of West Marches is that it seems to be at a pretty small scale, reminiscent of Forest of Doom or Scorpion Swamp, not the 5+ miles per hex typical of sandbox campaign settings. Something like the 1 mile per hex of the Yggsburgh map seems like about the maximum for this play style, where every bridge, rocky outcrop and fallen log can potentially be meaningful.