Quote from: Chris24601;1028839My preference and those of those I know are for arrays/point buy. That doesn't mean we're uncreative power-gaming rules lawyers. It just means our preferences are different than Pundit's.

Yes, I'm aware. I really wasn't directing that particularly at you. Other than the request for popcorn which was directed at everyone generally.

Each method (random, point allocation, life path, mix of 2 or more) has its pros and cons (clearly which aspect is a pro and which is a con is often in the eye of the beholder). Different methods of character creation work for different needs. I don't think that should cause anyone to get their small clothes all twisted in a knot.

Quote from: AsenRG;1028830But what does it have to do with being afraid?

Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to Internet feuds among fans of different flavors of RPGs, Internet feuds among fans leads to dismissive comments about how somebody else prefers to create their character.

Quote from: Bren;1028841Each method (random, point allocation, life path, mix of 2 or more) has its pros and cons (clearly which aspect is a pro and which is a con is often in the eye of the beholder). Different methods of character creation work for different needs. I don't think that should cause anyone to get their small clothes all twisted in a knot.

Well put.

My favorites are very random where you get to discover the character (Traveller, Lion and Dragon, Zak S's odd charts, even OD&D to some extent) or very points based (GURPS).  The stuff in the middle usually ends up less fun, overall.  

Back in the day, it was things like 4d6, order to taste that started to put a sour taste in my mouth.  Some rolls were just objectively better than others so it became a power thing.  Before, the high ability score could not be planned.  So if it was where you most wanted it then you felt like you won the lottery.  3d6 in order created interesting dilemmas.

But 4d6 ordered to choice would make me prefer point buy

Quote from: Chris24601;1028793-People who have badly burned by the random chance that life has thrown at them and play because they want to escape the randomness of life for awhile and have some degree of control over something, even if its just the form their avatar in a fantasy world takes.

Oh Christ... Point-Buy as Therapy, really?

Quote from: Certified;1028808That's a whole lot of words from someone scared of a random gender.

If any player of mine wants to randomly roll their gender, they're more than welcome to do so. It's as easy as rolling 1d2.

QuoteOr, are you ready to explain the abundance and ease of gender reassignment magic?

What the fuck does that have to do with anything?

Quote from: Chris24601;1028839Games where the PCs are expected to be more adversarial are more fun when the players start out on a level field, for example, because the satisfaction of beating your fellow player is more genuine when you legitimately outplayed them than stomping them because you rolled great for stats and they rolled crap.

If your definition of "Adversarial" is anything other than rolling up characters and having them fight in a gladiatorial arena, the actual stats they have should matter very little.

QuoteLiving campaigns work a lot better off arrays or point buy because its a lot easier to judge when a player you don't know cheated on their chargen when there's no randomness in the process (I've watched a player score a 17, 18, 16, 13, 14, 16 on straight 3d6 in order... but good luck proving that to the jaded DM who's caught players lying about their die rolls multiple times).

Yeah, sure, Organized Play does have an extra reason to not allow random character generation, I agree.
But of course, Organized Play sucks massive ass.

QuoteGames where the whole point is to play your favorite superhero work a lot better off point buy than random rolls ever could.

If the point is to literally play your favorite superhero, as in "I'm going to literally be Captain America", then there shouldn't be any point-buying or random rolls at all.
Otherwise, point buy is just as ineffective as random-rolls.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1029080If any player of mine wants to randomly roll their gender, they're more than welcome to do so. It's as easy as rolling 1d2.




What the fuck does that have to do with anything?

You mean 1d14, right;)?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1029080What the fuck does that have to do with anything?

Abundant and accepted gender reassignment magic is a clear extension of your prior statement.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1027942Well, no, actually. He doesn't get to pick which social class he was born into. He also doesn't get to decide his prior event, or background skill. His family (if you're using those rules) is also randomly rolled. Even his name is rolled (unless the GM rules otherwise).

The only thing he gets to pick is what career he gets into. Which makes sense, because we do that in real life too.

Since you cannot pick your gender at birth, clearly there must be some easy and acceptable means to change gender prior to the start of the game that has no social repercussions.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1029079Oh Christ... Point-Buy as Therapy, really?

Again with the hyperbole. It can't be a legitimate difference in preferred playstyle... if you don't like Pundit's way to game, you're mentally ill.

You sure you're not a snowflake? You're sure sounding like one. You must march in lockstep to the One True Way.

Here's a Newsflash. RPGs are supposed to be FUN.

If you spend your days getting screamed at by a crappy boss... how much fun do you think it would be to roll a hapless peasant where you get to be crapped on with an extra helping of floggings if you dare talk back?

Letting people make what they want to within set guidelines means how much fun they get to have and how much they want to push their own boundaries in pursuit of fun is up to each individual... not the whims of a random number generator.

Letting my players (because 90% of the time I'm the GM) play what they want and explore what they want to is what I find fun.

Some players push their boundaries because they want to explore different facets via essentially improv acting. That's cool.

Some make a slightly fantasy version of themselves because they're more interested in the problem-solving aspects of the game than exploring different headspaces (i.e. the type of player who names their character "M Elf"). That's cool too.

Some people just want to vent after a bad day at work by having their super-badass PC cleave through armies of orcs. Also cool (and a healthier outlet than many other alternatives).

There is no One-True-Wayism in RPG's. Everyone's allowed to have fun in their own way or what's even the point?

For someone who spent a whole lot of time criticizing the the SJW Storygamers for their efforts to shut down any alternative, you seem bound and determined to be just like them in decrying any form of play that doesn't match your preferences. No one is making you play in the games I'm playing in. I have no interest in playing in yours. Why be an asshole about it?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1029081If your definition of "Adversarial" is anything other than rolling up characters and having them fight in a gladiatorial arena, the actual stats they have should matter very little.

Okay, let's play Chess. You get no queen or knights. Go.

Or how about this...

- I get a Character of the Middle Upper Class (using the UA rules for Social Class) with a Str 17, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 16 (this is an actual set of rolls for a straight 3d6 in order that I saw someone roll up... very unlikely, but possible).

- You get a Character of Lower Lower Class with a Str 13, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 8.

We have mutually opposing goals. How do you overcome me?

I am better than you in every possible way. If I get even the slightest whiff that you are plotting against me (and let's face it you're not that bright or likeable... someone will rat you out for the reward) then I have the local constabulary round you up, flog you half to death and lock you in the dungeon until hunger and exposure finishes the job. If you resist they'll just beat you to death in the streets. You have no rights. I am a High Lord. You are a serf plotting treason. End of adversarial challenge.

Or we could do something where its a bit less random than what real life might give two random people in the world and say we're both nobles of roughly equal stature and ability who are each attempting to gain a region of rich farmland or at least keep our rival from getting it. You each get an array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 you can arrange to taste and equivalent starting resources. How you achieve your end goal is up to you. Do you form alliances in the king's court? Do you win battles for the King to try and win his favor? Do you try to assassinate your rival or use foul sorceries to impede him?

Isn't that scenario a bit more challenging and satisfying to beat than curb stomping a hapless serf?

Quote from: RPGPundit;1029081Yeah, sure, Organized Play does have an extra reason to not allow random character generation, I agree.
But of course, Organized Play sucks massive ass.

I'm glad you live someplace blessed with an overabundance of potential players that you can be so selective and judgemental about your RP opportunities.

I know some people who, due to circumstances beyond their control, find that organized play is the only opportunity they even get to be able to play face-to-face RPG's at all. But sure, go ahead and insult them because its not your ideal approach to gaming.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1029081If the point is to literally play your favorite superhero, as in "I'm going to literally be Captain America", then there shouldn't be any point-buying or random rolls at all.
Otherwise, point buy is just as ineffective as random-rolls.

I think substituting random dice rolls for actual creativity might rot your brain if your favorite superhero is anyone other than one you've created yourself.

But to express that hero you can't have random rolls determining their capabilities... so using Point Buy is the way to go.

I occasionally use "random" when I need something to spark my creativity, but once its been sparked I prefer to build and create like the artist and craftsman I am.

Random rolls are a crutch for true creativity, not a replacement.

If rolling a poor character gives your dinkie a sad, I don't want you playing with me.

That's right up there with "I attacked the big bad evil guy and I rolled a one and MISSED and it ruined the whole campaign."

If your ego is that fucking fragile, you need therapy, not a point buy RPG.

Yes, I do play point buy games, but not for protection against the evils of random rolls.  Crom's hairy nutsack.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1029079Oh Christ... Point-Buy as Therapy, really?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1029137If rolling a poor character gives your dinkie a sad, I don't want you playing with me.

That's right up there with "I attacked the big bad evil guy and I rolled a one and MISSED and it ruined the whole campaign."

If your ego is that fucking fragile, you need therapy, not a point buy RPG.

Yes, I do play point buy games, but not for protection against the evils of random rolls.  Crom's hairy nutsack.

Show us on the doll where Point Buy touched you.

I mean seriously we got Gronan with a false strawman and Pundy with an aversion so hard it rivals diamonds.

Some of us have concepts we want to try out.

Superhero game:  Speedster who throws lightning.  Not too smart, not too strong, his powers are kind Flash like, except he throws lighting blasts at the bad guys.  Most random based roll games don't really work in this regard.

And then you have the players who, in a D&D game, roll no more than 8 in any one stat wondering what class can they take and how well the can help the party, when all they have to add to say a 5e game, is minuses to each stat check.  In D&D is about being part of a team, and I don't know about you, but when I was in school and used to play games like dodge ball during recess, being chosen last usually meant you were the fat kid with no strength or speed, and likely no accuracy.  (And yes, sometimes I was that kid.)

'But low stats are part of life' some will say.  Well, yes, but true friends would not bring a mentally retarded, physically handicapped friend with them into danger.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1029146Show us on the doll where Point Buy touched you.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1029137Yes, I do play point buy games, but not for protection against the evils of random rolls.  Crom's hairy nutsack.

Show us on the doll where READING COMPREHENSION touched you in a bad way.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1029146'But low stats are part of life' some will say.  Well, yes, but true friends would not bring a mentally retarded, physically handicapped friend with them into danger.

I'm reminded of Heroes Unlimited a bit where it was possible to roll a character up who's highest stat is an 8, has only a high school education and whose only powers were Static Electricity Control (or as it was generally known "control static cling") and Extraordinary Sense of Taste (not of the Queer Eye version, which would have been FABULOUS with Control Static Cling; the lame version that lets you detect arsenic by putting it in your mouth) while another rolls up a character with 16's and 20's before skills, is a PHD and has Control Elemental Forces: Air (i.e. Storm) plus Alter Physical Structure: Metal (i.e. Colossus) as their powers.

That first character has no business at all going out into the field to stop muggers, much less supervillains. There's no way Dr. Steelwind drags Static Boy with them to go fight The Living Inferno (unless they're Miscreant or Diabolic and then only to laugh as they burn alive). At least Batman has maxed out stats, extensive training and NIGH-INFINITE MONEY to deal with that stuff.

I feel the same way about D&D characters. It takes a certain level of ability and initiative to be willing to throw yourself into the lightless depths in pursuit of treasure and other adventurers aren't going risk their lives on a weak link who might get them killed because they're too weak, clumsy, stupid or clueless to deal with a hazardous situation that comes up. At best some of those get to come along and watch the horses and help carry stuff out after the dangerous work is done (or be made to jump up and down while 30' ahead of you in the hallway to set off any traps if you're evil I suppose). But those aren't fellow PCs. They're sidekicks (and not the skilled ones like Robin... more like Robin's Minstrels).

I'll play a character with randomly rolled stats from time to time if that's what the GM insists upon (if I still get to make the rest of the choices); but its certainly not my preference by any stretch. I'd probably not play in a game where I have to randomly roll my species or profession though; that's actually more immersion-breaking for me than playing the opposite gender is (at least a female human is still a human, not something with a potentially completely alien mindset... plus I'm the group artist and human women are certainly fun to draw if nothing else); and I absolutely draw the line at being forced to randomly roll the character's name... I'll go read a book before I surrender that degree of creative control to random dice results.

Those are my personal preferences. I don't begrudge others having different preferences. I don't insult them for having different preferences (though I will express my disinterest in those preferences if relevant). I don't make them play in my games and I'm not interested in playing in theirs and the world doesn't end because we have different preferences.

You're proceeding from mistaken information.  In OD&D the only advantage to a high prime requisite is an XP bonus, and the only disadvantage to a low prime requisite is an XP penalty.  A very low CON gets you -1 per HD, and a very high CON (15+) gets you a +1 per hd.  Each point of INT over 10 lets you learn a language.

A character with all stats between 9 and 12 is perfectly viable for any class, and low stats simply don't penalize you all that much.  A fighter with a STR of 7 is perfectly viable if you don't mind the XP penalty and absolutely must play a fighter.