Quote from: Ratman_tf;1021701In our experience, this meant that spellcasters would choose combat or combat useful spells, since combat was a frequent occurance. Magic Missile, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, etc. You don't have to cast Hold Portal if your opponents are all dead, you don't need Knock if you have a thief along, Or at least, that's how the thinking went.
This wasn't true 100% of the time, of course, but often enough so that we used the houserule when we realized the original rule wasn't really balancing anything.

I guess us old timers are different; we figured that anything that could be possibly handled by swords, we'd  handle by swords.  The MUs took some combat spells, sure, but also took a good selection of utility spells.  Guys with swords can handle a dozen goblins.  That FLY spell is pretty handy to cross the chasm.

And KNOCK is damn handy when you're being chased and you want to get through that door NOW.

Of course, that assumes that you don't fight the stupid wandering monsters because they have no treasure and, therefore, crap XP.

The longer your MUs spells last, the longer you can stay down in the dungeon.  The dungeon had a LOT of obstacles other than monsters.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1021827I guess us old timers are different; we figured that anything that could be possibly handled by swords, we'd  handle by swords.  The MUs took some combat spells, sure, but also took a good selection of utility spells.

The limited number of slots, especially at low levels, was a big factor in the magic users picking the biggest "bang" for their buck.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1021282To me, selecting my loadout of spells beforehand is the most interesting part of playing a magic user, so I find this very unappealing.  However, I seem to be in the minority on this issue.

I think probably that you are. By 1975 a rule like Darrin's was pretty common among the various DMs in the area where I was located. Balance wasn't a big concern and that rule change didn't seem to stop most people from running fighters or clerics instead of MUs.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1021830The limited number of slots, especially at low levels, was a big factor in the magic users picking the biggest "bang" for their buck.

At first or second level, yeah, SLEEP or maybe Charm Person is the choice.

By the time you've hit 6th or 7th level with the magic user, though, you should be going for a more balanced load.  At least one sleep, because goblins are a pain in the ass, and a fireball, but you've got enough slots by then to change it up.  And it wasn't unusual for our magic users to have spells left at the end of the adventure.  Better to have a Hold Portal and not need it than need it and not have it.

Quote from: Bren;1021863I think probably that you are. By 1975 a rule like Darrin's was pretty common among the various DMs in the area where I was located. Balance wasn't a big concern and that rule change didn't seem to stop most people from running fighters or clerics instead of MUs.

I really am.  And it's nothing about balance; I just find the choosing to be interesting.  It's why I lose interest in magic users around level seven or eight; they have so many spells by then there are no decisions to make.

Quote from: Bren;1021863I think probably that you are. By 1975 a rule like Darrin's was pretty common among the various DMs in the area where I was located. Balance wasn't a big concern and that rule change didn't seem to stop most people from running fighters or clerics instead of MUs.

Because it really didn't change the rest of the dynamics of the game. And in my view, it didn't break the balance between character classes. So there was no functional advantage that really made Magic Users and Clerics superior to the other character classes.

When I created the thing, I wanted it to be as inobtrusive as possible. Something that people could take or leave. And not really break things if it wasn't used.

Some people like managing that kind of stuff, some don't.  Just like I saw some people playing BATTLETECH and omitting the heat rules.  For me, managing heat is one of the most interesting parts of the game.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1021874And it's nothing about balance; I just find the choosing to be interesting.

Whereas I recall finding the using not the choosing to be the interesting portion of play.

It's like wargames with prewritten orders.  Some people like them and some don't.

I like the idea of mages instead getting 'spell slots' gaining mana points per level to be used daily, depending on their primary spellcasting attribute and level, which they can use on daily basis with the more powerful spells requiring more points to cast. This I believe is a better, more plausible representation for mages than 'slots' and gives bigger flexibility for spellcasters than to just use 'slots' and spell preparation. I believe there was once a similar variant rule in a 3rd (or 3.5) Edition book, but my group used it before that as well.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1021282To me, selecting my loadout of spells beforehand is the most interesting part of playing a magic user, so I find this very unappealing.  However, I seem to be in the minority on this issue.

In my opinion a mage which actually learned their spells should always have access to his own memories/head and be able to cast any of the learned spells, but be limited by the amount of power they could put out daily. A wasteful mage would burn their mana in a hour, perhaps a war mage or 'siege mage' is a good example of that, while a careful mage could cast less powerful spells the whole day long and still have mana left.

A Wizard's book would work something like 5th Edition's ritual spells, a gathering of magic rituals/spells which the mage can cast without spending any (or much) power of his own on them, but would take at least 10 minutes to cast spells from the book, and would involve chalk or coal drawing.

I believe most, especially older D&D players would agree with you Gronan, but I myself can't see many limitations on spellcasters making sense.

For a priest to pray daily does make sense, as the spells are usually not considered their own to begin with, just as 'loaned/gifted' ones so for them I would say the classic method works, although I would still give a minor choice list of their own which grows with level (and/or wisdom). On the assumption the divine power gets stronger/imbued in the priest with time passing in service to a god. Something like having a cantrip of his own on level 3, a level 1 spell on level 5, and so on. This would be his personal power however.

I actually enjoy the forethought planning aspect of play as well. It was like the fighter's decision on what weapons to bring. Nowadays fighters are expected to be "one-weapon, all-day" specialists, which I cannot even... Just the thought of going adventuring without at least a melee and ranged weapon is beyond me.

And yet people whinge on how to bring a 'sword and board' fighter up to parity, because I guess carrying a ranged weapon is beyond the pale. And people refuse to look at how weapon gear lists are anemic compared to how spell widgets are vomited forth. Y'know, a fighter using a sensibly contextual weapon without that extra +1 or +2 is not the end of the world. But we'd rather tag on wuxia fightan magic than, y'know, bring the right tools and actually make preparation decisions. Oh, and we should make wizards' already flexible slots even more flexible, too, because why waste time with preparation choices.

I feel it's like old biddies with enormous tote purses -- who want to carry everything, like the kitchen sink and that hand blender *just in case* -- and expecting it all to be managed like some sort of sonic screwdriver.

It's very much not my style of play. What's so interesting about being Felix the Cat beyond farce? What's so interesting about being a one-weapon fighter trying to turn their lone weapon into Green Lantern's ring? But then I don't 'get' Supers either, so... not my idea of fun.

Various weapons for fighters also makes sense, except if you specifically built it around a concept, like a classic sword/shield knight, or a hoplite.

However, the comparison of non-caster fighters and mages doesn't work out well, as fighters don't suddenly stop being useful after a few swings of their weapons.

edit: While at it, why shouldn't a mage which actually learns spells not be able to cast spells based on situation like the choice of weaponry for your fighter? How is it logical for a mage to not use an ice spell against a fire elemental or fire spell against a troll only because it wasn't 'prepared', but still having learned it? D&D seems to use the word 'learn' for arcane casters (except if innate magic like for Sorcerers) but at the same time uses their books as the actual source of knowledge which any peasant could open up to cast all those spells from... but still only x amount of spells daily.

Very simple, because it is a genre conceit tied to D&D developed with an eye towards Vance's Dying Earth aesthetic. No more, no less. Just like Spell Points and "Always Readied" Spells are strongly tied to developments in video game RPG aesthetics.

And when I want to not worry about preparation beyond selecting from a menu and a single "gas meter," I play with Spell Points. And when I want to worry more about preparation in terms of choice and quantity, I play with 0.x ~ 3.PF Spell Slots. And when I want to worry about preparation in terms of choice but not quantity, I play with 5e Spell Slots. (And when I want merely drawn out argument and abuse, I "play" Solipsism: the Arguing, er, I mean, Mage: the Ascencion. )

And so on.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1022010Just like Spell Points and "Always Readied" Spells are strongly tied to developments in video game RPG aesthetics.

Except using "Spell Points and "Always Readied" Spells" in table top gaming predates their use in video games. Table top games with spell points and such predate video games like Asteroids, Pac-Man, and Donkey Kong much less any video game where you get to play a wizard on screen.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1021282To me, selecting my loadout of spells beforehand is the most interesting part of playing a magic user, so I find this very unappealing.  However, I seem to be in the minority on this issue.

It certainly forces you to think laterally in some situations.