Quote from: Nexus;1020039I'm in the oddball minority tastes on this (the dip my fries in a milkshake, put grape jelly on a sausage biscuit crowd of the rpg set, I guess. ). I likes me some crunch for supers games when the general trend seems to be towards light mechanics.

Light systems and/or narrative systems, for sure, seem to be out in abundance. I'm on the fence about many of them. I'm inconsistent on the flavor. There's a PbtA Supers system I thought about running, but really didn't care for the way origins and drives worked--you acquired certain abilities based on "when you...." fulfill certain conditions. But I don't care for ICONS, either, outside character gen, because it's random.  Never dove in on M&M, but I did look into Hero system years ago, and then quickly decided it was a monster of a reference book that I just didn't grok. Couldn't commit to Savage Worlds, either, even though I acquired the base and Powers system.

This is an interesting genre, because the mechanical progression prevalent in your typical fantasy, etc. game, with its levels and doohickeys and such, is very much anathema to how Supes "grow." They get better at using their powers, and maybe those powers get inherently stronger, but, for the most part, I don't expect a great deal of change in the basic character. For something like supers, I'd prefer they just get more Competency Dice, which they can selectively use each session, to indicate greater expertise and experience.

Quote from: cranebump;1020166+1. Someone tried to wave "realism" in front of the Big Green Guy? The guy with the magic hammer? That raccoon with the guns?

We know what happened that **that** argument.:-)

You're conflating two different things.  Thor might have a magic hammer that lets him fly, call storms and lightning bolts, and be one of the few things that can knock the Hulk across a city, but he can't heal the sick, shoot beams of heat out of his eyes, or tear the moon in half by clenching his buttcheeks.

Any individual Supers world has a "reality" for that world that dictates how things work, it's just obviously very different from ours.  Just because in the World of Greyhawk dragons exist doesn't mean 3 year olds can turn the world to cotton candy.

Batman's a literary protagonist, sure, and that's why he'll keep going for another 60 years no matter what happens to him.  But, you can totally have a Batman game without the genre conceits.

In a game, you can play Batman with GURPS or HERO as a human with maximums in all physical and mental stats, a bunch of non-superhuman Advantages and Disadvantages and a metric fuckton assload of skills and equipment without bringing a single shred of Superhero Comic Logic into the game, and most of the time he would end up playing just like you would think Batman could, through Verisimilitude, not Genre.  If he wants to go toe to toe with Superman, he needs Power Armor and Kryptonite Gas (which he can make in game) not necessarily OOC Genre Mechanics.

"Because X exists in this alternate reality different from our world all bets are off." always has been one of the weakest arguments.

As far as the OP goes, #3 shows this guy to have a fundamental ignorance about GMing language.  He thinks "planning" and "preparation" equal "plotting".

Wonder where he got that notion?

Quote from: cranebump;1020170Light systems and/or narrative systems, for sure, seem to be out in abundance. I'm on the fence about many of them. I'm inconsistent on the flavor. There's a PbtA Supers system I thought about running, but really didn't care for the way origins and drives worked--you acquired certain abilities based on "when you...." fulfill certain conditions. But I don't care for ICONS, either, outside character gen, because it's random.  Never dove in on M&M, but I did look into Hero system years ago, and then quickly decided it was a monster of a reference book that I just didn't grok. Couldn't commit to Savage Worlds, either, even though I acquired the base and Powers system.

This is an interesting genre, because the mechanical progression prevalent in your typical fantasy, etc. game, with its levels and doohickeys and such, is very much anathema to how Supes "grow." They get better at using their powers, and maybe those powers get inherently stronger, but, for the most part, I don't expect a great deal of change in the basic character. For something like supers, I'd prefer they just get more Competency Dice, which they can selectively use each session, to indicate greater expertise and experience.

Supers can be a difficult to genre to fit into rpgs. As you mention, their advancement tends to be odd (and practically glacial) compared some other adventure genres. They're very reactive rather than proactive. And live (or die, then often come back) by genre conventions and some degree melodrama. Which could be part of the reason Supers are (and I suspect will remain) a popular but niche part of a niche hobby.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1020299You're conflating two different things.  Thor might have a magic hammer that lets him fly, call storms and lightning bolts, and be one of the few things that can knock the Hulk across a city, but he can't heal the sick, shoot beams of heat out of his eyes, or tear the moon in half by clenching his buttcheeks.

Any individual Supers world has a "reality" for that world that dictates how things work, it's just obviously very different from ours.  Just because in the World of Greyhawk dragons exist doesn't mean 3 year olds can turn the world to cotton candy.

Batman's a literary protagonist, sure, and that's why he'll keep going for another 60 years no matter what happens to him.  But, you can totally have a Batman game without the genre conceits.

In a game, you can play Batman with GURPS or HERO as a human with maximums in all physical and mental stats, a bunch of non-superhuman Advantages and Disadvantages and a metric fuckton assload of skills and equipment without bringing a single shred of Superhero Comic Logic into the game, and most of the time he would end up playing just like you would think Batman could, through Verisimilitude, not Genre.  If he wants to go toe to toe with Superman, he needs Power Armor and Kryptonite Gas (which he can make in game) not necessarily OOC Genre Mechanics.

"Because X exists in this alternate reality different from our world all bets are off." always has been one of the weakest arguments.

So is shifting the definition to fit your evidence.

My comment was just an offhand joke. That said, arguing reality in the superhero genre really is pretty silly.

Quote from: cranebump;1020670That said, arguing reality in the superhero genre really is pretty silly.

We should stick to arguing about important things, like who would win in a fight between Thor and Superman.

Quote from: Bren;1020757We should stick to arguing about important things, like who would win in a fight between Thor and Superman.

HA! Yes, though, from what I heard, the dials go to 11 in Supes' universe (according to the Busiek version).:-)

Quote from: Bren;1020757We should stick to arguing about important things, like who would win in a fight between Thor and Superman.

Sadly, Thor is a little too grounded to win that one, though if he had the Odin Force it would change things completely.

Now, if you really want to shatter friendships toss out Goku vs Superman for debate and watch the flames erupt.

I'd like to see some of the super-hero games give better advice on non-reactive games. What I mean is that most supers games have the heroes doing everything they can to return the setting to its default status quo after some attack/disaster/villain plot and very few of them ever go beyond there to changing the world for the positive. I think the Authority and the old Squadron Supreme were the exceptions, but I haven't read comics for a few decades now, so there are likely more I'm unaware of. Regardless, these don't seem to show up in the gaming side too often.

Quote from: Brand55;1020778Sadly, Thor is a little too grounded to win that one, though if he had the Odin Force it would change things completely.

Now, if you really want to shatter friendships toss out Goku vs Superman for debate and watch the flames erupt.

Nope, because the answer is clearly "neither"!

Goku wins the first fight. Superman goes to train in kriptonite Hell, returns and wins;).
Then they team up and fight Evil!

No friendships have been ruined during the writing of the above post!

Quote from: HappyDaze;1020799I'd like to see some of the super-hero games give better advice on non-reactive games. What I mean is that most supers games have the heroes doing everything they can to return the setting to its default status quo after some attack/disaster/villain plot and very few of them ever go beyond there to changing the world for the positive. I think the Authority and the old Squadron Supreme were the exceptions, but I haven't read comics for a few decades now, so there are likely more I'm unaware of. Regardless, these don't seem to show up in the gaming side too often.

Kinda seems like that wouldn't really be a super hero game anymore. Super heroes are inherently reactive and trying  to restore the status quo. What you're describing could be fun, but that would be "overlords with super powers," not super heroes.

For what it's worth, I'm working on a superhero RPG system that is physics-based and uses a logarithmic approach. The use of logs will be readily grasped by anyone familiar with the Mayfair DC Heroes system, although the game mechanics are different because it is fully logarithmic. (E.g. In DC Heroes, if Batman had Body 6, he could be taken out by 6 1-point damage hits, or 1 6-point damage hit, but in a fully logarithmic system 6 1-point hits don't even equal a single 3-point hit, let alone a 6-point hit.)

The physics of the system are working beautifully. If you enter real world data and turn them into the log system it gives --
- realistic throw distances for footballs, baseballs, shotputs, discuses, frisbees, javelins, kegs, hammers, 56lbs weights based on strength stat and object weight in logs
- realistic blast radius and blast damage based on joules of explosive power
- realistic ballistic damage based on Krupp Formula for weapons
- realistic collision damage from objects based on mass and velocity
- realistic vehicle toughness and survivability based on vehicle weight and material strength

It's virtually the opposite design approach of any contemporary superhero RPG, where the focus has been narrative or emulative. Hopefully folks will dig it.

p.s. to avoid argument, all I mean when I say "realistic" is that "outcomes in the game for event X under condition Y tend to approximate, within a broad range, outcomes in the world for event X under condition Y". So the amount of shots to destroy a destroyer with 5" guns is in the range that naval historical analysis suggested, or the efficacy of a kevlar vest versus a 9mm pistol or an AK-47 is appropriately varied. But I don't mean it's realistic in that it says "superman could never lift a 747 because of surface pressure of his hands on the fuselage." Instead it extrapolates physical law to apply to superhero physics as if it were real - "IF superman could throw a 747 [even though we know he couldn't], how far could he throw it, given that he can lift 1000 tons [even though we know that's impossible]".

Quote from: HappyDaze;1020799changing the world for the positive

That's what the villains do. This is so hard coded into the Superhero genre that I don't think you can change it and have things still feel like a regular superhero tale. The Authority is Deconstruction of the Superhero genre, not Superhero genre itself.

Quote from: Bren;1020757We should stick to arguing about important things, like who would win in a fight between Thor and Superman.

Quote from: Brand55;1020778Sadly, Thor is a little too grounded to win that one, though if he had the Odin Force it would change things completely.

Now, if you really want to shatter friendships toss out Goku vs Superman for debate and watch the flames erupt.

Superman is vulnerable to magic, Thor uses a magic hammer that shoots magic lightning, and he may be magic himself, but I'm hazy on that particular detail.  I'd give the edge to the God of Thunder.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1020881Superman is vulnerable to magic, Thor uses a magic hammer that shoots magic lightning, and he may be magic himself, but I'm hazy on that particular detail.  I'd give the edge to the God of Thunder.

Given that Superman can travel at the speed of light and fry  Thor with x-rays from a thousand miles away before Thor even knows they're fighting, and that's just one of  a dozen options , I'd  give the edge right back to Superman.