Quote from: RPGPundit;1018844It is really a pity that the historical GURPS books sold poorly. They were amazing.

Yes, I agree completely; they were/are right in my wheelhouse. And they go for crazy prices sometimes in the secondhand books market. But everybody wants their goddam dragons, zombies, and magic items.

Quote from: Dumarest;1018874Yes, I agree completely; they were/are right in my wheelhouse. And they go for crazy prices sometimes in the secondhand books market. But everybody wants their goddam dragons, zombies, and magic items.

But then there is this in Suetonius:

QuoteHe [the Emperor Tiberius] had among his pets a serpent [in some translations dragon], and when he was going to feed it from his own hand, as his custom was, and discovered that it had been devoured by ants, he was warned to beware of the power of the multitude.

I recall seeing a passage in Pliny which suggests that the Emperor Claudius had to have another dragon put down by the Praetorians when it got a bit uppity, but I cannot now find it.  Still, you too can have a dragon in your Roman-era fantasy if you wish, though, as one of my players suggested:

"It can't be much of a dragon if it was eaten by ants."

And another replied, "well, we haven't seen the ants yet, either."

Quote from: wombat1;1018889But then there is this in Suetonius:



I recall seeing a passage in Pliny which suggests that the Emperor Claudius had to have another dragon put down by the Praetorians when it got a bit uppity, but I cannot now find it.  Still, you too can have a dragon in your Roman-era fantasy if you wish, though, as one of my players suggested:

"It can't be much of a dragon if it was eaten by ants."

And another replied, "well, we haven't seen the ants yet, either."

Not sure what you're addressing here since we were talking about historical settings, not fantasy versions.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1018844It is really a pity that the historical GURPS books sold poorly. They were amazing.

This is the prime example of why history gaming doesn't sell outside of war gaming.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1018980This is the prime example of why history gaming doesn't sell outside of war gaming.

I blame a mental block among gamers. You add a touch of fantasy to a historical game, and it does just fine. Dark Albion is a case in point.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1019168I blame a mental block among gamers. You add a touch of fantasy to a historical game, and it does just fine. Dark Albion is a case in point.

It's not a mental block, it's a lack of imagination.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1019168I blame a mental block among gamers. You add a touch of fantasy to a historical game, and it does just fine. Dark Albion is a case in point.

Quote from: Kiero;1019191It's not a mental block, it's a lack of imagination.

While I tend to agree with Kiero, let's just call it "mental block" for politeness' sake:D!

Quote from: Kiero;1019191It's not a mental block, it's a lack of imagination.

Yes. Ironically roleplayers on average seem to have very little imagination or desire to do more than just the same old vanilla fantasy. It puzzles me as much as the fat neckbeards who think they are experts on martial arts and swordmanship because they watched some Chinese and Japanese movies.

I'm not as polite as Asen.

Well, I think the times are changing:). The vanilla fantasy thing was certainly a problem at some point, but doesn't seem to be such a big one now!
To clarify, I'm judging by the games I see people playing online.
Sure, d20 games are still more numerous, but lately people seem more willing to go beyond vanilla settings. So I see no reason to be less than polite;)!

Well, the reason I say it's a mental block is that just adding a tiny bit of fantasy makes it suddenly acceptable to play a game that's 80-90% historical.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1019987Well, the reason I say it's a mental block is that just adding a tiny bit of fantasy makes it suddenly acceptable to play a game that's 80-90% historical.

Because it allows people to 'change' history, rather than re-enact it.  It's a silly hang up but that's how a lot of players think in my experience (anecdotal.)

Quote from: RPGPundit;1019987Well, the reason I say it's a mental block is that just adding a tiny bit of fantasy makes it suddenly acceptable to play a game that's 80-90% historical.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1019990Because it allows people to 'change' history, rather than re-enact it.  It's a silly hang up but that's how a lot of players think in my experience (anecdotal.)

I think it's even more fundamental than that.  When you're playing 100% historical, you're faced with the fact that in real life, you're probably not a hero and probably not doing awesomely interesting things.  If you were, you'd be out doing them and too busy to roleplay.  You don't have the wealth to follow your interests 24/7 or the freedom or courage to just set off and walk around the world with a backpack.  

Every cool thing your character does reminds you that you could do similar things...you're just not.

Add magic in, even minor, and BAM, fantasy.  Now nothing that happens in that game says anything about you, your situation, your limitations, your decisions in life, whatever.

Even a game without magic can have genre rules that turn it into "fantasy", because you're a cinematic/pulp/literary protagonist, and again, you get that distance.

In addition, Magic, as well as High Tech, acts as a force multiplier.  It allows players to reinforce that "difference" between themselves and their character, even in a very mundane, 99% historical/real life setting.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1020024I think it's even more fundamental than that.  When you're playing 100% historical, you're faced with the fact that in real life, you're probably not a hero and probably not doing awesomely interesting things.  If you were, you'd be out doing them and too busy to roleplay.  You don't have the wealth to follow your interests 24/7 or the freedom or courage to just set off and walk around the world with a backpack.  

Every cool thing your character does reminds you that you could do similar things...you're just not.

Add magic in, even minor, and BAM, fantasy.  Now nothing that happens in that game says anything about you, your situation, your limitations, your decisions in life, whatever.

Even a game without magic can have genre rules that turn it into "fantasy", because you're a cinematic/pulp/literary protagonist, and again, you get that distance.

In addition, Magic, as well as High Tech, acts as a force multiplier.  It allows players to reinforce that "difference" between themselves and their character, even in a very mundane, 99% historical/real life setting.

That's only true if the historical premise is "you play an ordinary peasant/serf/commoner/slave in this period". See again "lack of imagination".

I ran a straight historical game, the premise was explicitly "the PCs are all experienced mercenaries and their retinues", which avoided all of those things you've described.

Quote from: Kiero;1020027That's only true if the historical premise is "you play an ordinary peasant/serf/commoner/slave in this period". See again "lack of imagination".

I ran a straight historical game, the premise was explicitly "the PCs are all experienced mercenaries and their retinues", which avoided all of those things you've described.

You missed my point.  
My point was not:
"Historical gaming will be boring playing people who live in drudgery like you do in real life."
My point was:
"Historical gaming with interesting PCs reminds you that your real life could be a lot more interesting, it just isn't."

I'm not saying your "lack of imagination" argument is wrong, I certainly think a lot of people think the first.  Which was kind of the point of the other thread, to get the historians to show us how cool it could be.

I just think there are other factors at work as well.  People want varying levels of Escapism out of their RPGs, and once you toss in magic or high tech, you hit a whole different bracket of Escapism.

True enough, it's escapism of a different (smaller) order of magnitude.