Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1018795I suppose you're saying to just let them die then, regardless of whether it would feel like years of time had been wasted. I am actually somewhat in agreement with this, but I have my doubts.

If the game was fun, the time was not "wasted."  By the logic above, every wargame I've lost has been "time wasted," which is just plain bullshit.

If somebody's dinkie gets a sad because they lose a game, I don't want to play with them in any case.

Quote from: Bren;1018759That would be, in part, because his epic isn't done until the hero dies the final death.

High level characters never end with "And then he got smallpox and expired," so you don't really need to worry about having an unsuitable death, whether by a mighty dragon or a whole army of goblins.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1018898High level characters never end with "And then he got smallpox and expired," so you don't really need to worry about having an unsuitable death, whether by a mighty dragon or a whole army of goblins.

I don't worry about characters in an RPG having an unsuitable death. I play RPGs to find out what happens. So whether a death is heroic, tragic, comedic, anticlimactic, pathetic, or bathetic whatever death the hero ends up with seems like a suitable death to me.

Quote from: Bren;1018922I don't worry about characters in an RPG having an unsuitable death. I play RPGs to find out what happens. So whether a death is heroic, tragic, comedic, anticlimactic, pathetic, or bathetic whatever death the hero ends up with seems like a suitable death to me.

Yep.  We don't know who's Biggs, who's Wedge, who's Porkins, and who's Luke until it's all over.

Quote from: AsenRG;1018818...I'm not sure what's your point, so I'm going to abstain from replying.

I'm not sure either, I've been putting in a lot of overtime and I I'm tired to the point delusion, but I have some downtime in my overtime, so that allows me to make some nonsensical posts.  Just ignore it.

Death for high level D&D characters is often reversible.

Whether a death is "meaningful" or not isn't a criteria I care about.

The only reason I'm running a game is for the laughs, excitement and tension of real people around a real (or virtual) table.  If anyone were to participate and do/feel all of those things, but later think their time was wasted because of a particular thing that happens to a character then they aren't a match for my game.  The game is just the means to bring about the end of a social gathering in meat space.  

So a character death is an acid test to see if everyone's priorities are matched.

Quote from: Madprofessor;1018956I'm not sure either, I've been putting in a lot of overtime and I I'm tired to the point delusion, but I have some downtime in my overtime, so that allows me to make some nonsensical posts.  Just ignore it.

OK, and to avoid overworking yourself:)!

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1018898High level characters never end with "And then he got smallpox and expired," so you don't really need to worry about having an unsuitable death, whether by a mighty dragon or a whole army of goblins.

Well, what is an unsuitable death. Is getting killed by a random encounter unsuitable?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1019007Well, what is an unsuitable death. Is getting killed by a random encounter unsuitable?

I rem once in the early '90s Mortis Deathlord, a ca 25th level 1e AD&D PC in service to demon prince Graz'zt, was trekking through the mountains along with two similar level NPCs, on their way to assassinate the enemy King of Trafalgis, a viking realm. I rolled up a random encounter with 4 adult red dragons, who proceeded to wipe out these epic villain characters.

It was definitely bathetic - and AIR I did have the PC resurrected some years later to continue service to his dark master. But the old stories have loads of bathetic ends. Jack Vance is inspirational. The PC Mortis was ultimately executed by Graz'zt when he (a) started to get cocky, beginning to see himself as Graz'zt's equal, and (b) accidentally violated a non-aggression pact Graz'zt had with Thrin, a lesser god lawful good PC.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1018929Yep.  We don't know who's Biggs, who's Wedge, who's Porkins, and who's Luke until it's all over.

D&D: Where sometimes, the fat guy is the hero.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1018117How do you handle the death of such characters? They have the potential to end the campaign or dissolve the party if everyone else was mostly tagging along. It's also a big blow to lose a character after investing so much time in them.

Do you just let them die, and let the campaign die if that's the natural result?

Yes, although in my experience that doesn't happen commonly. The player either makes a new character, promotes a henchman, or finds some other solution that allows them to continue playing. If the campaign "dies", then everyone just makes new characters and we start doing something else. The campaigns don't die, however, as one particular character is not foundational to a campaign. There are no Golden Children. If one character really wants to rescue the nephew of Baron Gilden and gets eaten by a giant frog, it becomes the party's quest. If the party has no interest in the nephew, and would rather hunt gnolls in the Sea of Grass, then it's the nephew who has the problem, not the party or the new character.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1019007Well, what is an unsuitable death. Is getting killed by a random encounter unsuitable?

I can't really think of an unsuitable death.

Here's another example, and one that might come up in a session soon: an assassin targets a PC in their sleep. This is appropriate for the context of the situation, but still, this is one of those situations where a PC, if the dice go bad, could die before they even know what happened.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1019170Here's another example, and one that might come up in a session soon: an assassin targets a PC in their sleep. This is appropriate for the context of the situation, but still, this is one of those situations where a PC, if the dice go bad, could die before they even know what happened.

If this happens I'll generally do the rolls at-table so players can see what happens. Many D&D versions make it hard to take out a high level PC at table.

I don't make assassins omniscient. I recall one time a Neo-Nerath assassin struck as the ca 10th level PCs were resting at a mage conclave on their way to close the Black Sun gate. With the PC group was an NPC (from The Licheway, I recall) who claimed to be an Archmage, he dressed the part but was really a phony, a 2 hd non-caster. Anyway, when the Black Sun assassin was choosing his target, naturally his top priority was to take out the enemy Archmage... ...And the PCs slept peacefully all night.

I generally find player characters with powerful enemies do take precautions, and aside from 3e/Pathfinder I can usually have those precautions be effective, or dice for it (3e/PF is broken IME and often requires handwavium why high level caster NPCs don't use scry-and-die on the PCs). I recall one serious assassination attempt - the PCs were in Ahyf, local hive of scum and villainy, and got into a big fight at the fighting pits liberating some pit fighters. Hakeem was badly wounded killing Gorok Halfogre the pitmaster, giving three Black Sun assassins who had infiltrated the town a chance to strike when he & his friends fled town. It resulted in a brutal night battle on the road but the PCs managed to prevail and took shelter in a farmhouse, fearing more assassins.

If Hakeem or similar high-value PC was foolish enough to put themselves in a position where an assassin could strike as they slept, I would roll with it, using the 5e rules they would take a critical hit in damage, plus poison - likely would kill a Wizard PC or similar squishy, but a high level Barbarian or similar might well survive the wound, wake up and kill their attacker. It would take a lot of CR 8 Assassins to take out Hakeem, 20th level Barbarian with 2 Epic Boons inc Epic Fortitude, CON 24 & 325 hp (takes half damage from weapons while Raging, so effective 650!). My son Bill's Dragonborn Barb-17 Shieldbiter with 209 hp might be more vulnerable, but generally it's the high level casters who really need to worry.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1019170Here's another example, and one that might come up in a session soon: an assassin targets a PC in their sleep. This is appropriate for the context of the situation, but still, this is one of those situations where a PC, if the dice go bad, could die before they even know what happened.

Then you play out the assassin:). Now I'll refer to the assassin as "her", because staples of fiction:p.
How good is she at locating the PC? PCs often move.
Then, how good is she at getting in the environment without attracting suspicion, and gathering info? Have her roll a check. If she fails, report "suspicious so and so has been sighted".
Then, have her roll for overcoming each defensive measure separately. If she fails, act appropriately. (Assuming she's really a compatible gender and not lacking in looks, and if such things happen in your game and wouldn't be an OOC warning, she might get around most defences by picking up the PC himself).
Assuming she gets to the sleeping PC with a knife at the ready, proceed as per your rule system with hefty bonuses. (In OD&D, the PC dies. In PF, roll a coup de grace. In GURPS, have her roll against the jugular or similar with a +2 to damage, and so on;)).

The real question here is what is the DM doing wrong that he didn't manage to kill these PCs before they got to such high levels?