Quote from: joriandrake;1012283... hm, would you say Babylon 5 was cyberpunk-ish? or DS9?

Only if you stretch the term so far its lost its original meaning.

Quote from: Omega;1012521Only if you stretch the term so far its lost its original meaning.

Both stations were city-like and especially B5 had slums.

Quote from: joriandrake;1012527Both stations were city-like and especially B5 had slums.

None of which in and of itself has anything to do with cyberpunk. A Tree Grows in Brooklyn is not cyberpunk. (Even if you set it in space.)

Quote from: Omega;1012529None of which in and of itself has anything to do with cyberpunk. A Tree Grows in Brooklyn is not cyberpunk. (Even if you set it in space.)

My question was directed at RPGPundit though, who focused on the importance of impoverished, overcrowded urban setting.

Quote from: joriandrake;1012283... hm, would you say Babylon 5 was cyberpunk-ish? or DS9?

Nope.

Quote from: joriandrake;1012283... hm, would you say Babylon 5 was cyberpunk-ish? or DS9?

No. Mainly because in Ds9 the cultures and content of the Federation was well past the conceits of cyberpunk genre. It's a post-scarcity society. Offworld sure there might be some places that would be cyberpunkish - but largely no. It's firmly in classic sci-fi territory.

B5 - I say no simply because the conceits of the characters are beyond, like Ds9 that of cyberpunk genre's limits. Not that cyberpunk elements don't exist there in pockets - sure. But the overall scope of the show and setting are beyond that of "traditional" cyberpunk. It's nowhere near as dystopic.

I look at cyberpunk as a tight-knit genre that is easily encompassed and absorbed into the larger sci-fi genre. While it may still exist here and there - one could easily say (and I would be one of them) that "cyberpunk" is almost a developmental stage that leads to harder sci-fi.

One of the conceits I consider prominent if not primary in Cyberpunk is the relationship of the individual to large financial interests (such as mega-corporations). Both B5 and DS9 are more standard sci-fi in that they have a military/government focus, along with meeting new and interesting (and/or threatening) cultures. Money is acknowledged in both, but it isn't a primary focus and the haves and have-nots are mostly those within a command structure--be it normal military/government, or within secretive intelligence orders. B5 and DS9 were groundbreaking at the time, and expanded the genre (and allowed a new form of grit to exist in sci fi), but they're both pretty divorced from cyberpunk.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1013565One of the conceits I consider prominent if not primary in Cyberpunk is the relationship of the individual to large financial interests (such as mega-corporations). Both B5 and DS9 are more standard sci-fi in that they have a military/government focus, along with meeting new and interesting (and/or threatening) cultures. Money is acknowledged in both, but it isn't a primary focus and the haves and have-nots are mostly those within a command structure--be it normal military/government, or within secretive intelligence orders. B5 and DS9 were groundbreaking at the time, and expanded the genre (and allowed a new form of grit to exist in sci fi), but they're both pretty divorced from cyberpunk.

See, but even then, military is a big part of the backgrounds of a LOT of cyberpunk. I agree with you on a certain core premise: cyberpunk has to do with street-level people using street-level tech to deal with issues that are usually way out of their respective league, or dealing with problems that start outside of their shitty circumstances and invade into it. There are lots of little needles to thread through that we can dance around, sure.

You enter core sci-fi when those needs for everyday survival - whether it's getting food into your gullet, or psychological - where you're stuck in some corporate hellhole trying desperately not to become one of those aforementioned hungry blokes, are no longer an issue. CP2020 and Shadowrun definitely both have those elements.

What puts Shadowrun completely apart from CP2020 is the supernatural stuff layered on top of and within it.

There was a wargame way back in the late 90s called Shockforce that effectively took Warhammer and Shadowrun and merged them together into a cyberpunk setting. Instead of magic it was mutations. GW sued them. But GWAR and Legions of Steel were still made.