Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1011616Well, yeah, but...

Model railroading is an optional leisure activity.  Nonetheless, the Cumberland Northern Railroad operates at 7:30 every Wednesday at a place in Minnesota.  If you said you'd be there and don't show up and don't call... and if you CONTINUE that pattern... you will be un-invited.  The same with hundreds of other model railroads throughout the country.

Martial arts class is an optional leisure activity.  Sailing classes are an optional leisure activity.  Lions' club, et. al.  Everything I named earlier is an optional leisure activity.

Yet its practitioners make and keep commitments, and if they can't, notify the appropriate people.

Or more to the point, that is the expectation.  The gaming community seems to have really low expectations in terms of showing up when promised or notifying if you can't.

I think this varies by what the organizers are willing to tolerate.  I've seen more than one martial arts organization where it is run as a school.  Those that show up regularly get taught.  Those that do not, get taught a lot less.  The organizer will encourage people to show, if for no other reason to get their money's worth.  But ultimately it's no skin off his nose as long as he can get enough people to show to make it work.  (Back in my fencing days, I almost got run ragged for a few months.  One of the weekday sessions was poorly attended for a time due to a natural change in the school roster, which meant the few of us there got the instructor's undivided attention.  Learned a lot, but could barely keep up physically as the one middle-aged student in a group of teens and college kids.)

I used to tolerate people that would say they would be there, then not show and not notify.  Because that is what it took to get a game together at all, and I wanted to have a game badly enough to tolerate it.  Then I found I could no longer tolerate it, and didn't.  Made the game work without tolerating it.  I've seen the exact same dynamic in all kinds of social activities, even some with formal RSVPs attached to them.  It was so common when I was a kid, that my parents had a name for it:  Being someone's second choice.  "I'll show for the party if Sally doesn't invite me to the movie instead."  That kind of thing.

I specifically said 'front line fighter in heavy armor'.  I also probably should have specified OD&D, where you have to physically create and hold a line to keep the enemy off the magic users.

Yes, we used to do most of our killing with swords, and the front line fighters are swinging as much as anybody.  But the way to make fighters not boring is to use them in not boring ways.  SOmetimes the situation requires the front heavy line simply slug it out, but that's the exception.  I am specifically countering those who claim that fighters need specialized combat things in the rules to be interesting.

And it's not "DPS do the actual killing", it's "pin, flank, and destroy."

Pulling 'aggro' just means making yourself an attractive target (attractive as in putting up flashing neon-lights saying "I'm the highest-priority threat here; attack me first!"). In D&D 3.5 this meant dealing a lot of damage, which meant that the party tank also had to be a DPS in order to be effective as a tank. In D&D 4E this meant the threat of retaliating with free attacks against enemies that try to attack your allies.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1011452The players who talk about mechanics don't WANT to just "say whatever." It feels like just making stuff up that isn't "real." They want to have a mechanic representing some power in the game world, like if the mechanic wasn't there then it isn't "really" happening. That and the point is often made that having a rule gives the player in question a specific, repeatable, reliable move they can rely on, whereas when it is an open-ended thing then it could be as weak or as strong as the GM wants.

In other words, a big part of the fun here is the character building, taking this option or that, putting together your character the way a car enthusiast would go over each component of his car with a fine tooth and comb to custom order it. It is also the satisfaction of putting together the perfect structure, like building a model ship, putting everything just in its right place.

Just doing it freeform feels like a cop out to them. There is no engagement or rigor or challenge that they can then show off to their friends. You can't show off your character sheet to people to see what kind of character you made if all of it is just happening in the moment between GM and player.

At least, that's what I've been able to suss out from multiple conversations over the years. Otherwise I wouldn't see people balk at it every time I suggest they just do what they think makes sense in their imagination, etc.

Give those players a sack of quarters and send them to the local Chuck E. Cheese where they can play all the video games they want. That'll free up your table for another group possibly interested in the game at hand.

Quote from: Dumarest;1011637Give those players a sack of quarters and send them to the local Chuck E. Cheese where they can play all the video games they want. That'll free up your table for another group possibly interested in the game at hand.

Or, alternatively, you play an engaging roleplaying session with them using one system... and another engaging roleplaying session with your other friends using a "say whatever" style system. Or are we pretending that there's a right way to TTRPG again?

Quote from: Dumarest;1011637Give those players a sack of quarters and send them to the local Chuck E. Cheese where they can play all the video games they want. That'll free up your table for another group possibly interested in the game at hand.

I actually went to Chuck E Cheese a month ago for my nephew's birthday party. They don't use quarters or tokens anymore. They use electronic cards. /trivia

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1011627I've seen the exact same dynamic in all kinds of social activities, even some with formal RSVPs attached to them.  It was so common when I was a kid, that my parents had a name for it:  Being someone's second choice.  "I'll show for the party if Sally doesn't invite me to the movie instead."  That kind of thing.

This is the thing I have noticed the most. I'm not sure when it started, it was a bit of a thing in the 70's when I started gaming, but it's really grown to be more of a thing. I'm curious how much more of a thing it is with folks younger than me who are connected 24x7 with their smart phones and social media, which makes it even easier to find out what is going on. I think a lot of the cause is the ease of making and changing plans in a more connected world. On the one hand, the ease makes it easier to offer some activity (party, going to the mall, going to a movie, whatever), which creates more options for folks to choose between. Without that ease, and the number of options, you either decided if you want to go to a party Saturday or not...

Frank

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1011642I actually went to Chuck E Cheese a month ago for my nephew's birthday party. They don't use quarters or tokens anymore. They use electronic cards. /trivia

I know that, my kids like going there for birthday parties.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1011359This topic came up among some of my players yesterday; they liked 5e's simplicity compared to Pathfinder, but lamented how bare bones combat options were, reducing them to basically being a robot every turn. It was interesting seeing this perspective, as he also saw it as a way to distinguish his character and emphasize his roleplay aspects. Without those options, his ability to express his character was limited.

So what's your take on it? Do you prefer combat options per class/subclass to be rich and fleshed out, or simple and straightforward? Is it boring when all you can do is "attack" again every time?

I want detail, including a map with counters for where everything is: characters, terrain, objects, animals, dropped weapons, dead bodies, etc., and rules about the effects of position, movement, weapon length, etc. so there is a game about the situation. And I want options for different things to try to do, but not so much the options found in many games with abstract combat systems, where fighters have brand-named combat options that do abstract stuff based on class/level.