Quote from: DavetheLost;1011482When I ran Metamorphosis Alpha a couple of years ago the players (experienced 3.5 hands) all commented about how great the game was because they could try to do anything they wanted. I thought this was an odd thing to say because that is how every game I have run or played has worked.  Apparantly there is a new generation of players out there to who the idea of simply trying to do something without a specific widget for it on your character sheet is a completely alien concept. Or tehy may just all be bugger eating morons. I don't allow snacking at my table, so I don't have conclusive evidence which it is.

Many more recent games depend heavily on character sheets.  About 12 years ago I was playing Star Wars d20 and running OD&D with the same group of people.  It was interesting; in d20 a situation would happen and everybody would look at their character sheets, but in OD&D a situation would happen and people would start talking to each other.

Same people, some relative newcomers and some people playing OD&D since I taught them in the 70s.  It was truly fascinating.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1011488What Macky was describing is an extreme edge case, possibly influenced by toilet training issues.

Since the popularity of MMORPGs, the notion of "character build" has infested TTRPGs like maggots.

Aren't these just powergamers and rules lawyers, who have been with us since the beginning of time?

Quote from: Voros;1011490Aren't these just powergamers and rules lawyers, who have been with us since the beginning of time?

Not necessarily.  Some people seem to just like fiddling with builds, and some people seem to be "robot builders;" they want to construct something and turn it on, and see how it performs.

And many powergamers nowadays not only want THEIR character optimized to maximum gigawatts per femtosecond of damage output, they get pissy if everybody else's isn't as well.

Arseholes to the lot of 'em, says I.

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1011484At the minimum, then, Grapple and Shove are right there in the rules. The optional rule for disarming an opponent can be used as well. Despite the fact that using Shove to knock an enemy down right before he takes several melee attacks from you and your pals is one of the best things you can do in 5e, nobody ever seems to do it. If you Grapple after your shove, the enemy can't even get back up without consuming its entire action. You can also bring in some of the optional combat rules from the DMG, like Disarm and Overrun.

If people balk at the concept of referees making rulings rather than having hard-and-fast rules, write some house rules. E.g...

Make an Intimidation vs Insight check as an Action. Enemy is afraid of you until the start of your next turn.
In place of a weapon attack, you can bash with your shield. Make an improvised weapon attack. On a hit, push the enemy back 5 ft.

etc.

You can come up with more things like this, and if you make them cost a weapon attack or Action and not do any damage, they'll be useful, but not automatically better than attacking.

Yes, but those are universal abilities. It doesn't let them distinguish their character by having it. Though I suppose I can remember to bring up things like that next time.

One example is Charisma. It's one thing to just style your character as charismatic -- but if you don't have any abilities related to it, or a high stat representing it, then you're just making stuff up. The stat is what makes the fact that you have high Charisma real, and the abilities coming out from that.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1011492Yes, but those are universal abilities. It doesn't let them distinguish their character by having it. Though I suppose I can remember to bring up things like that next time.

One example is Charisma. It's one thing to just style your character as charismatic -- but if you don't have any abilities related to it, or a high stat representing it, then you're just making stuff up. The stat is what makes the fact that you have high Charisma real, and the abilities coming out from that.

I would tell that player, "It is all just making stuff up."  That's what the game is about.  So the real question is about who makes stuff up, when, about what.  Once we've agreed on the principle, what remains is negotiating the price.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1011492Yes, but those are universal abilities. It doesn't let them distinguish their character by having it. Though I suppose I can remember to bring up things like that next time.

Not every character is proficient in every skill. As far as special things that only you can do...well, there are plenty of classes that do have special moves and powers, so IMO anyone who doesn't choose one of those in favor of Champion or something really shouldn't complain.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1011452Just doing it freeform feels like a cop out to them. There is no engagement or rigor or challenge that they can then show off to their friends. You can't show off your character sheet to people to see what kind of character you made if all of it is just happening in the moment between GM and player.

I have been dealing with this for decades. The problem is not new nor unique to the present day. The disconnect is that you are thinking it is free form but it isn't. Instead of 256 pages of rules dictate your adjudication, you use the rules of the setting of the campaign instead.

For example Gronan comments on proper tactics and teamwork is spot on for OD&D because among other things OD&D assumes a setting where the lessons of medieval warfare are valid. The rules are found in reading medieval history.

My tactic for dealing with is this what I call coaching. When I see a player hidebound by the need for rules I will coach step by step until they understand the rules of the settings.

What Gronan and other don't get is that by and large most gamers need this coaching than not. And always had from the beginning.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1011489Many more recent games depend heavily on character sheets.  About 12 years ago I was playing Star Wars d20 and running OD&D with the same group of people.  It was interesting; in d20 a situation would happen and everybody would look at their character sheets, but in OD&D a situation would happen and people would start talking to each other.

Same people, some relative newcomers and some people playing OD&D since I taught them in the 70s.  It was truly fascinating.

We are currently playing Over the Edge, where a character has only a few descriptors. The best thing it has is 4d6, others are 3d6, if a character is 'unskilled' in some department it's 2d6. Nobody stares at their character sheets.

D&D 5e with the same group of people. The mentality is entirely different. I think that of that bunch, I am the most fiddly-bit loving in 5e, but I like playing other types of games too.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1011359This topic came up among some of my players yesterday; they liked 5e's simplicity compared to Pathfinder, but lamented how bare bones combat options were, reducing them to basically being a robot every turn. It was interesting seeing this perspective, as he also saw it as a way to distinguish his character and emphasize his roleplay aspects. Without those options, his ability to express his character was limited.

Isn't the Battlemaster designed for players like this? Perhaps even a monk or a bladelock? Those classes have plenty of combat options other than "I hit it with my axe." I like simple and straightforward, myself.

Edit: I missed this:

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1011359As for the specific player, it was not being challenged in combat and being unable to customize their character because all they can do is attack, essentially, over and over, unless you're a wizard or battle master.

There are no classes with combat options!
Have you tried the battlemaster?
I don't want to be a battlemster!
:confused:

Quote from: estar;1011524I have been dealing with this for decades. The problem is not new nor unique to the present day. The disconnect is that you are thinking it is free form but it isn't. Instead of 256 pages of rules dictate your adjudication, you use the rules of the setting of the campaign instead.

For example Gronan comments on proper tactics and teamwork is spot on for OD&D because among other things OD&D assumes a setting where the lessons of medieval warfare are valid. The rules are found in reading medieval history.

My tactic for dealing with is this what I call coaching. When I see a player hidebound by the need for rules I will coach step by step until they understand the rules of the settings.

What Gronan and other don't get is that by and large most gamers need this coaching than not. And always had from the beginning.

How would you coach? Wouldn't the "setting rules" be just as limiting? Unless you make the rules super complex.

Quote from: Aglondir;1011541Isn't the Battlemaster designed for players like this? Perhaps even a monk or a bladelock? Those classes have plenty of combat options other than "I hit it with my axe." I like simple and straightforward, myself.

Edit: I missed this:



There are no classes with combat options!
Have you tried the battlemaster?
I don't want to be a battlemster!
:confused:

Perhaps that will be a good suggestion. But the problem would be that you are then pigeonholed into those archetypes; if you want to RP a certain kind of character that doesn't fit those, you are out of luck.

Come to think of it, bard has a lot of options too.

Quote from: estar;1011524For example Gronan comments on proper tactics and teamwork is spot on for OD&D

Getting there

 

Quote from: estar;1011524because among other things OD&D assumes a setting where the lessons of medieval warfare are valid.

Warmer...

Quote from: estar;1011524The rules are found in reading medieval history.

Satori

Quote from: fearsomepirate;1011407In 5e, if you want to do more than just swing your sword...just say what it is you're doing. The whole point of 5e is the concepts of opposed ability checks and the status effects make it very easy to adjudicate what happens if, instead of swinging his sword twice, the fighter wants to throw sand in his eyes, body slam him against a wall, etc. The grapple/shove rules are given as templates, not an exhaustive list of things you can do. The rules already say a level 5 fighter can use an opposed ability check to knock an enemy prone and another to hold him to the ground with one Attack action (2 attacks can be exchanged for a Shove and a Grapple), so that should be kind of a guide.

So if you've never done anything interesting with your fighter, it's because you've never tried.

Yes, I think 5e does a good job encouraging a variety of tactics if people will just give it a try. An action surging 11th level Fighter can do 6 different combat techniques on his turn! And a shove can be very effective in 5e - no opportunity attack, good chance of success, target gets no save. Kicking foes off heights is quite practical.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1011491Not necessarily.  Some people seem to just like fiddling with builds, and some people seem to be "robot builders;" they want to construct something and turn it on, and see how it performs.

And many powergamers nowadays not only want THEIR character optimized to maximum gigawatts per femtosecond of damage output, they get pissy if everybody else's isn't as well.

I find most builder type powergamers want other PCs who are baseline competent, so that their own uber build can shine by comparison.

CR/EL encounter 'balanced' encounter building contributes to the problem, it means that mechanically more powerful characters have a disproportionate impact - they can beat any encounter - whereas weak builds threaten the survival of the whole group. I find in old school status quo play this is far less of an issue, I can have 1st & 5th level PCs adventuring in the same levels of Stonehell, 1st and 3rd in the same PC group, and it works fine. Because many encounters are beatable by anyone while some encounters are unbeatable by anyone.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1011543Perhaps that will be a good suggestion. But the problem would be that you are then pigeonholed into those archetypes; if you want to RP a certain kind of character that doesn't fit those, you are out of luck.

Come to think of it, bard has a lot of options too.

Most classes do. I think it's good there are a couple exceptions - Barbarian & Fighter Champion - for those who like not having to make a choice every round. And they can still shove or grapple as well as attack. Take Greatweapon Master if they want another choice. Barbarian Reckless Attack is fun to play with too - I love my Polearm Master + GW Master + Reckless Attack barbs.