If so many modern games are rules light, why are the rule books so heavy?

Quote from: DavetheLost;1010407If so many modern games are rules light, why are the rule books so heavy?

Think we're probably not all talking about the same games. However, one could have a game where you could say that they are rules light, but still have large rulebooks simply because the game has assumed settings, bestiaries, example characters/NPCs, or whatever else contained within the core rulebooks.

Quote from: DavetheLost;1010407If so many modern games are rules light, why are the rule books so heavy?

All that angst packed between the covers?

Quote from: DavetheLost;1010407If so many modern games are rules light, why are the rule books so heavy?

Kind of wondering that myself. I haven't noticed any move to short or terse rule books in this century. What are all these modern rule books that are only a few dozen pages in length?

Quote from: bryce0lynch;1008125Someone shows up at your OP game with a character that is infinitely powerful. They found a rule loophole, and it seems legal.
What would you do?



"No, not at my table, I don't want to play with you."

Ask them why they are power gaming. Then point them to another game table they might click with.

I've seen people powergame for two reasons:

1) Strongly hates losing and will get uncharacteristically animated about it (e.g. grown men and women complaining, screaming, and crying)
2) Begrudgingly feels the need to keep up with those who live in the first group

Lite doesn't make a RPG immune to power gaming. For example with OD&D the focus becomes the getting the right magic items.

The only cure is the referee fixing it in how he runs his campaign.

My approach is to insist on first person roleplaying and I treat the setting with a life of its own. A OD&D power gamer trying to stuff quest comes off as a ridiculous shopaholic.

This is what actually what going on with one of the players in the campaign I run on Wednesday. Twenty years ago I might have been bothered by it but now I know what likely going to happen. Either my emphasis on roleplaying and bringing the setting to life will get the player to engage with the setting as his character. Or he will quit as he feels I am not catering to his power fantasies.

The Wednesday group has an impressive array of magic item already due to some lucky breaks and one of the players being smart about being an Merchant Adventurer (a class in my rules). Right now the group is focused on getting a captured ship to another realm to register it so they can bring it back to their home city.

One of the players asked me whether I am worried about the amount of stuff they have. I told

QuoteNo I am not worried, it is the party that should be worried. Your wealth is getting the group noticed. The fact you are averaging 6th level means if the group is not careful they will find themselves trying to fight in the wrong weight class.

I faced this situation with GURPS, Fate/Fudge, AD&D, Fantasy Hero, Runequest, and other RPGs complex, broken, elegant, and simple. The answer always rested on how I handled the campaign as a referee not a better set of rules.

For the record the other one sentence stereotypes of the other players.

1) A player who likes the detail of my setting and want explore everything
2) The foremention powergamer who calculated the best way to get ahead is to gain lots and lots of magic items.
3) A player who likes combat and just in it for the fights, pretty much the powergamer's sidekick.
4) A player who wants to be entertained by engaging in some escapism. Basically wants to adventure all the time and ignore everything else. Which BTW way I am OK with and can accommodate. The method of achieving is convincing the party to sail the high seas and look for adventure.

Hence why the party is in a foreign port trying to register a very nice ship they captured from a neighboring kingdom. On the good side the port is known for its corruption and the party has lots of silver and gold crowns. The bad side is the kingdom they took the ship off has dragons in its royal forces. And the kingdom was created by PCs 15 years ago who  gave me lots of notes on how they are running it. Including one short blurb on what would happen if any of their ships disappear.

Side Note: People like to mock Gygax about his recommendation on strict time keeping. I will say what happening in my current campaign is exactly why that advice is important. A lot of the PCs success so far is due to how they keeping ahead of things by moving around.

At the beginning of this week session is the point at which the Dragon Empire (the kingdom the ship was taken from) is aware that their ship is missing. When I rolled the encounter I noted that the ship was at the beginning of a month long patrol.

When shit went down and the PC victorious. They didn't dick around. They weren't aware of the deadline but they were competent to conceal the ship long enough to get to a spot were they could a large enough crew  to sail south. The date of arrival at the new port happens to be one week after the ship was due to arrive back her home port.

Quote from: estar;1010465Lite doesn't make a RPG immune to power gaming. For example with OD&D the focus becomes the getting the right magic items.

"Good luck with that, Cupcake.  Oh, sure, there's a Rod of Lordly Might out there.... somewhere..."

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1010467"Good luck with that, Cupcake.  Oh, sure, there's a Rod of Lordly Might out there.... somewhere..."

Being a stingy asshole as a referee is of course an option and stuff questing doesn't require the collection of the best magic items in the book. Dealing with it doesn't require blue bolting the PCs (or items) in question.

Being a stingy asshole as a referee has always worked for me.  And if they really want something, they can work to get it.

Not having a fully stocked magic item shoppe on every street corner does not make you a stingy asshole as a referee. Unless your standard is Monty Haul, then I guess it kind of does.  I am with Gronan, I like magic items to be special and well, magic.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1010487And if they really want something, they can work to get it.

Likewise so what the issue?

Quote from: estar;1010509Likewise so what the issue?

Only how much we respectively enjoy tormenting our players.  I prefer to taunt them openly.  "Your bitter tears of rage warm the cockles of my black, withered heart, little man."



I'm just goofin' around.

Oh, plus "You can TRY powergaming in OD&D, but good luck."  Players can want all the magic they want.  IN fact, that's a great basis for the campaign.

Quote from: Bren;1010434Kind of wondering that myself. I haven't noticed any move to short or terse rule books in this century. What are all these modern rule books that are only a few dozen pages in length?

Look at the actual rules section of most PbtA games. Or the simple step-by-step layout of the game rules in the games of Ben Robbins (Microscope, Follow), Stephen Dewey (Ten Candles) or Meg Baker (1001 Nights, PSI Run). One can dislike these games (although best to actually read or play them before doing so) but they can't be criticized for being convoluted, rambling or laid out unclearly.