The talk in the other thread got me thinking. I've read once that cyberpunk as a genre is the projection of our anxieties and fears as a society. If that's so, could we say Shadowrun, for all its fantasy trappings, is a better example of cyberpunk than Cyberpunk 2020 and most other games in the genre?

Maybe I've not read the right sourcebooks for CP2020 but it always seemed to me too focused on the punk attitude and style and boobs and chrome while forgetting to deal with the society "anxieties". While Shadowrun is full of those, from the way megacorps are depicted in it's workings and exploitations or society and environment, the metahuman racial violence/prejudice (Humanis anyone?) to issues of urban security/organization (arcologies, enclaves, anarchist states), individual liberty (SINners vs SINless), etc. Even the central premise of shadowrunners tells something about corporate culture using human beings as disposable tools.

Thoughts?

I always thought so. I never really bought into Cyberpunk, either the original 2013 or 2020 versions. It seemed more like they watched Bubblegum Crisis and ripped it off.

Shadowrun, though a completely ridiculous premise (though I do remember that Mayan calender stuff being big), seemed to be more real. More coherent, believable universe, despite the magic and tolkien races. Maybe it helped that it had so many novels.

My problem with CP2020 is how implausible the setup is compared to how history worked itself out over the covered time period. But, in a box, with itself, I think it has all the same glam and polish and focus on gangs/crime/greed that any self-respecting CP game should have.

Even when I ran it back in the day, I modified the history. I modified society a little. I would draw from imagery like Judge Dredd, Kult, Demolition Man. I changed out "how we got here" to be more "plausible" in my mind. But the attitude was the same.

I feel like Shadowrun has the added racial tension aspect without drawing directly on real-world paradigms. I think it gives you some wiggle-room to explore those themes without punching you right in nuts (or equivalent...). I also like supernatural elements in my games, do I sprinkled some of that into my CP2020 anyways; SR made provided some inspiration there.

The main issue you speak to above - a projection of our anxieties and fears as a society - is something that will realistically change with each passing decade (at least). I mean, had I wrote a cyberpunk game at the end of the Obama administration, it would feel somewhat dated already with the speed/nature of current events. :-D

Instead of comparing a cyberpunk settings to plausible current events, it would probably be better to take it in as a whole, unto itself. Ignore our current anxieties/fears and fully embrace the ones the author put front and center. I always found that difficult. I really wanted people to get immersed in the "relatable" suck, and then fight against it. Or just survive despite it. I never really embraced the whole "Rock and Roll will save the world" themes that CP played up. I've been ignoring the backdrop of CP for so long in lieu of my own creations I just assumed everyone did the same.

Quote from: trechriron;1007606I also like supernatural elements in my games, do I sprinkled some of that into my CP2020 anyways; SR made provided some inspiration there.

If you havent allready then have a look at Nights Edge. It was a setting book and some adventures for CP2020 that added supernatural threats. Really well done and some of the adventures are pretty good.

As for CP vs SR. Its a matter of how you play them and how much of the setting from either you keep or jettison.
Id say about 75% or more of the SR sessions Ive played in have had the supernatural elements toned down. Its there, but much more in the background which gives SR a much more cyberpunk feel. As for CP2020. Like SR its a very broad setting allowing for all manner of styles and approaches from the entertainment sector to the crime to the law enforcement to the corporate to whatever you want.

Wait... if I'm reading this right you are saying that Cyberpunk is less 'cyberpunk' than Shadowrun because of Racism?

Maybe... just maybe... Mike Pondsmith (a black guy, which is only relevant because of your weird thesis there), at least in the late 80's and early 90's, didn't think that Racial Anxiety was one of the big social anxieties of the day?   And honestly? I can't think of much, if any, cyberpunk literature in which Racism was the big social anxiety being addressed.

Lets look at your other social anxieties then.

Corporations run Amok*:  By The Gods! Cyberpunk 2020 HAS THEM!  The Military has been replaced by private contractor megacorporations like Militech! (or Arasaka, if you are in Japan and a number of third world nations). The Government practically doesn't exist! Admittedly, CP2020 doesn't quite go Full Robocop regarding police, the way Shadowrun does, but that seems an awfully small hill to die on.

The Environment:  Admittedly, unlike you (OP), I HAVE Read All THe Sourcebooks, so oddly I can't say that the main book does or doesn't deal with this per se, but Yes, Virginia, Environmental Destruction is very much a part of the CP2020 setting.  While you don't so much have food riots (or at least not as hyped as Shadowrun), toxic waste dumps and murdering of Nomad Clans camped on Illegal Dump Sites (See Corporations above!) is very much part of the setting.

Arcologies: Got 'em.

Sinners vs Sinless: Well, not in those terms, but what the fuck do you think Nomads are? The dispossessed 'unpersons', scavenging their own way across a practically post-apocalyptic wasteland, exploited by the Corporations.  The constant dehumanizing of hte bottom of society is just as much a theme in CP2020, perhaps moreso given the excessive emphasis on people as consumer units (Style vs Substance).

Shadowrunners: THis one is just silly. The concept of Shadowrunners/Running is nothing more than putting a lable on "Player Characters". Cyberpunk 2020 has Shadowrunning, they just don't call it that, or really much of anything, which arguably makes it more realistic than 'Shadowrun'.

Quote from: ItachiIs Shadowrun more "cyberpunk" than Cyberpunk 2020 ?

Not only "no", but "fuck no".

Quote from: Spike;1007617Wait... if I'm reading this right you are saying that Cyberpunk is less 'cyberpunk' than Shadowrun because of Racism?

Maybe... just maybe...

Nope, that's not what I was shooting for. I was just discussing. I think SR played to that more so than CP is all. I believe some might consider that an easier entry point into the gang warfare angle than assuming real-world racial tensions, but both could equally handle it. I think CP2020 made some assumptions about what you brought into the game, where SR had some burden to "re-educate" you on a fantastical setting.

I like both games for different reasons, and I ran WAY more CP2020 than I ever did SR.

Omega - I loved the Nights Edge books, some wonderful dark horror stuff. Seriously inspired me when I found those at Nybbles and Bytes in Tacoma...

Quote from: trechriron;1007628Nope, that's not what I was shooting for.

I was addressing the OP, not you, man.

I don't recall ever seeing Nibbles and Bytes. I spent my time at the Matrix or.....  that one store that set up by the movie theater for a couple years.

But then, I wasn't a native.

To me, Shadowrun is a rather safe, almost twee representation of the cyberpunk genre. It's not just the addition of Tolkienesque fantasy, but also the very tropes within the game are designed to be familiar, rather than transgressive and iconoclastic.

Cyberpunk itself hasn't really aged well as a game, but then it hasn't been updated half as many times as Shadowrun has. The longtime wait for the mooted Cyberpunk 2077 would do something about that, but until it does, Shadowrun will remain the big seller in the hobby without much challenge. That said, I prefer Judge Dredd....

Twee... as in "excessively or affectedly quaint, pretty, or sentimental" or "affectedly or excessively dainty, delicate, cute, or quaint"?

That's one I never would have seen coming.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1007633Twee... as in "excessively or affectedly quaint, pretty, or sentimental" or "affectedly or excessively dainty, delicate, cute, or quaint"?

That's one I never would have seen coming.

Absolutely it is. Shadowrun sells because it has pretty art and appeals in a quaint, sentimental way towards safe fantasy tropes. The actual cyberpunk tropes are also now just reassuring cliches rather than ideas that test out traditional sci-fi norms. So, yes, it's twee.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;1007636Shadowrun sells because it has pretty art and appeals in a quaint, sentimental way towards safe fantasy tropes.

Huh, having a huge art budget and marketed by FASA, Microsoft and other companies with money to get artists like Elmore and Tim Bradstreet had nothing to with it I guess. :rolleyes:

Bradstreet art pretty...yeah that...well, speaks for itself.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;1007636The actual cyberpunk tropes are also now just reassuring cliches rather than ideas that test out traditional sci-fi norms.

Meaning what?  You're one of those that thinks Cyberpunk is "over" because iPhones?

Edit: You could be talking about Catalyst Shadowrun I guess.

Quote from: CRKrueger;1007638Meaning what?  You're one of those that thinks Cyberpunk is "over" because iPhones?

No, the opposite actually. But Shadowrun doesn't provide any of this, just clings to tropes that are 30 years old already. If you want ideas that are more contemporary and 'edgy' you wouldn't go looking to Shadowrun for them.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;1007639No, the opposite actually. But Shadowrun doesn't provide any of this, just clings to tropes that are 30 years old already. If you want ideas that are more contemporary and 'edgy' you wouldn't go looking to Shadowrun for them.

They had an adventure in 4e IIRC that touched on some Transhuman themes like body swapping. But generally, I agree. It's a lot more about kicking the shit out of stuff and getting paid. In The Dark Future(tm).

Quote from: trechriron;1007643They had an adventure in 4e IIRC that touched on some Transhuman themes like body swapping. But generally, I agree. It's a lot more about kicking the shit out of stuff and getting paid. In The Dark Future(tm).

Pretty sure 5th edition shitcanned the transhuman themes entirely. Hell, half of the new fluff was meant to roll the feel of the game back 3 editions.

Shadowrun nowadays is about as punk as my little pony.