The Forums, they are a changin'

[Imperator]

So yes, those will be the defaults.  IF someone can really convince me that one of these "Storygames" really is basically an RPG (just calling itself a "Storygame" to sound pretentious but has all of the RPG features like players, a GM who actually has all the power, an emphasis on playing characters where "creating a story" is not the main goal of the game, emulation, immersion, etc etc.) then I'll consider allowing it to be discussed on the RPG forums.

I find this position far more reasonable than your previous one, and I applaud you for that. Again, it's a matter of personal decision on your side and this is your place, so everything goes. But I like this decisión.

[RPGPundit]

Yes, unlike Ron Edwards and his theory on his site, I actually allow people to talk about my Landmarks on my site.

I love your double standards.

RPGPundit

[David R]

Well, until you decide it has served it's purpose.

Double standards, says the guy who topic banned Seanchai, something the mods at rpgnet would have really liked to have done (well they banned him at the end, so I reckon' you're a little bit better)

Regards,
David R

[RPGPundit]

Well, until you decide it has served it's purpose.

No, see, that's Ron Edwards.  Are you seriously suggesting that my moderation is the same as Ron Edwards?

Double standards, says the guy who topic banned Seanchai, something the mods at rpgnet would have really liked to have done (well they banned him at the end, so I reckon' you're a little bit better)

No, see, Seanchai absolutely insisted that my moderation was the SAME as RPGnet's. So I decided to take him on his word; he kept claiming it, and therefore gave up his right to have me treat him differently than an RPGnet mod would, making him a clear object lesson to everyone else as to exactly what the difference is.  The way I'm treating him in moderating is absolutely NOT like I'd treat anyone else, but since he INSISTS that I'm just like an RPGnet mod, I'll treat him like I am one so that he (and others) can learn the difference and stop saying stupid things.

Now, once again, are you saying my moderation is just like Ron Edwards'?

RPGPundit

[David R]

No, see, that's Ron Edwards.  Are you seriously suggesting that my moderation is the same as Ron Edwards?

Who said anything about moderation. I was talking about your precious theory...oh...sorry guidelines. (Wait with Edwards we can't talk about GNS or whatever. Here, we can't talk about theory (GNS) but we can talk about your "guidelines")

No, see, Seanchai absolutely insisted that my moderation was the SAME as RPGnet's. So I decided to take him on his word; he kept claiming it, and therefore gave up his right to have me treat him differently than an RPGnet mod would, making him a clear object lesson to everyone else as to exactly what the difference is.  The way I'm treating him in moderating is absolutely NOT like I'd treat anyone else, but since he INSISTS that I'm just like an RPGnet mod, I'll treat him like I am one so that he (and others) can learn the difference and stop saying stupid things.

So instead of sticking to your principles or y'know the ones you claim to have and demonstrating that you are not like the mods at rpgnet, you decided to behave like them as a lesson to all of us who would compare you to them.

I don't know how you treat everyone else. An attack on you is apparently an attack on free speech. Pointing out similarities between rpgnet mod behaviour and yours is apparently something which is not done on a site which supposedly values free speech because as mentioned, an attack on you is an attack on free speech.

But maybe you're right. Cavscout has been awfully quiet since this all started.

Now, once again, are you saying my moderation is just like Ron Edwards'?

And once again, read what I wrote.

You're pretty hung up on the moderation part, aren't you. You wave your dick around about free speech and when challenged, attempt to compare your modstyle with Edwards (I certainly didn't). Setting your standards pretty low aren't you? But what the hell, I figure the more you go on about the WAR and Swine, more similarities will crop up. And then maybe people will not compare you to the mods at rpgnet but to Edwards.

Now me, this place was never about free speech. It was talking about games. And who the fuck are you, that we have to come to you, to determine what is and isn't an rpg. We do that all by ourselves, in case you missed the We All Had Names thread.

But Imperator is right. This is your site. Do whatever the fuck you want, just don't tell me you're weilding the flaming keystrokes of truth.

Regards,
David R

[Spinachcat]

I am good with the No Theory in Design.   I have no clue what Landmarks or Guidelines might be, but I like design forums where we share actual shit being put together in our brains.   The Dragonsfoot Workshop works just fine without any focus on theory.

As for defining RPGs, I have no clue what Pundit means.   The storygames people can't even define their own shit.  I do not enjoy SotC, but its an RPG by any definition I know.  I know a LARP is different than an RPG, but I do not know what exactly Burning Empires is (other than unplayable, but filled with interesting ideas to pillage).

Personally,  "Games That Suck Donkey Balls" would be a perfectly good subforum and Pundit can just put games he doesn't like there.   Hell, if it was my money that kept a vanity website operational, that's what I would do.  

Pundy, you run a good site.   Thank you for keeping it open!

[RPGPundit]

So instead of sticking to your principles or y'know the ones you claim to have and demonstrating that you are not like the mods at rpgnet, you decided to behave like them as a lesson to all of us who would compare you to them.

Yeah, see I tried to respond with the obvious, that Seanchai (and others) who keep claiming over and over again that I'm JUST LIKE RPG.net mods would never be able to make those kinds of attacks on RPGnet, and that in and of itself that was proof they were lying.

But they kept going, so you know what? Its time to try a different tactic, yes. Because this will have the benefit of making it absolutely obviously clear what the difference is, and apparently granting Seanchai his own little reality that he so desperately wanted.  So just for him, I'm going to be EXACTLY like an RPGnet mod.

I don't know how you treat everyone else. An attack on you is apparently an attack on free speech. Pointing out similarities between rpgnet mod behaviour and yours is apparently something which is not done on a site which supposedly values free speech because as mentioned, an attack on you is an attack on free speech.

Trying to deceptively and maliciously claim that when I move a thread I'm just like RPGnet mods who topic-ban entire (TRUE) topics like Brain Damage or ban people at the slightest sign of resistance, while here I take on massive levels of DAILY attacks and insults directed at me, mostly by people with no real interest in this site succeeding, is an attack on free speech, yes. Because its trying to cast doubts on the very freedom of speech that is available here for the sake of harming this place.

And once again, read what I wrote.

I did read what you wrote. You wrote something implying that when it was no longer convenient to me I would ban discussion about the Landmarks just like Ron Edwards BANNED all discussion about GNS theory on his site claiming that his theory was perfect and thus required no criticism.

You're pretty hung up on the moderation part, aren't you. You wave your dick around about free speech and when challenged, attempt to compare your modstyle with Edwards (I certainly didn't). Setting your standards pretty low aren't you?

The people attacking me are the ones who compare me to these guys, and yet ironically many of them (not seanchai, but you certainly) seem to have a total double standard.  I guess in some people's eyes its ok for Castro to jail political dissidents in cuba, but if a US president were to arrest someone who threw a molotov cocktail at a cop he'd be commiting crimes against humanity.
Likewise, the same people who are attacking me claiming that I've become a "fascist" for MOVING threads seem to be just hunky-fucking-dory with Ron Edwards CLOSING threads and banning discussion on anything he wants.

Now me, this place was never about free speech. It was talking about games. And who the fuck are you, that we have to come to you, to determine what is and isn't an rpg.

I'm the Pundit.

RPGPundit

[RPGPundit]

As for defining RPGs, I have no clue what Pundit means.   The storygames people can't even define their own shit.  I do not enjoy SotC, but its an RPG by any definition I know.  

Spirit of the Century? I forget if they call it that or try not to but yes, it is an RPG. It runs on Fudge, for fuck's sake.  Its a really crappy RPG, that may have been "inspired" by Storygames and Forge Theory (thus ensuring its crappiness), but its an RPG.

Pundy, you run a good site.   Thank you for keeping it open!

Thank you!

RPGPundit

[jhkim]

No, see, that's Ron Edwards.  Are you seriously suggesting that my moderation is the same as Ron Edwards?

As someone who went through Ron Edwards' moderation -- no, your moderation is not the same.  

Ron would rarely ban anyone, but he would often close threads and/or declare them off-topic.  He did not directly moderate away posts that disagreed with his theories, but then he had the advantage of a more fervent crowd of supporters than you do.  He was much more quick to shut down threads in which there was flaming -- which had the side effect of making it difficult to tackle controversial topics.  You could restart discussion with a different spin under a new thread, but the conversation lost momentum.  He wasn't a terrible moderator -- the worst stories I hear are from RPGnet -- but he wasn't very good.  

That said, I'm fine with the recent organizational decisions.  All forums needs to have a focus, and so non-traditional RPGs being off-topic under the main forum is fine.  I would only have a problem if there were anti-story-game discussion in the RPG section -- as there has occasionally been in the past.

[Kai_Wren]

Well. I post so rarely that I doubt my absence will be noticed, but.

Pundit, I am disappointed. I've followed your blog for a long time. (Years ago, I emailed you as Breakingout, and was delighted that you chose to respond to my email.) I am a fair bit older now, but I've proudly considered myself on side with you in the war against the swine for quite some time. Even if I don't contribute often.

But this move smacks of the very kind of thing you yourself rail against. You are of course correct in some ways; you do not have to listen to these people. You certainly don't have to listen to me. You do not owe anyone anything, and at the end of the day, this is your house. You make the rules.

But you have decided to do so in a way that shows your personal bias, and I no longer feel like this site is being run under the same principles from which I remember it being established. This is primarily down to one particular quote.

Discussion on politics or religion is no longer allowed anywhere outside the context of RPGs. I can still start any thread I want in the Pundit's forum and people can respond, of course. People can also (as before) start threads in the Pundit forum, but on the subject of the Pundit, but including, theoretically, the pundit's politics and religious views.

The way I saw it, we weren't really having any meaningful political discussions there anymore, anyhow, and the off-topic forum was starting to veer-off into Tangency land, with threads where posters played stupid games like "insult the author of the post above you" or asking "what are your favorite drinks"; so I wanted to refocus that whole section.

Perhaps you are correct. Perhaps it was drifting towards that kind of feel. But a forum is a community as much as it is a discussion board, and a community is built on more than just one subject. By destroying the space in which people can discuss issues that are important to them outside of the world of RPGs, you have destroyed any spirit of community this board may have had, outside of the context that you yourself choose to allow. Creating an Edwards-esque cult of personality that I would never have dreamed of seeing associated with your name.

I don't hold out much hope that you will respond to this message, or that my voice will make much of an impact on your decision. I simply felt compelled to explain why I am seriously considering taking something that has been a part of my daily schedule throughout my adult life, and removing it entirely.

[RandallS]

So in light of some consultation with the other mods, and to make some structural re-arrangement, we've decided to alter some of our policy and some of our forums.

These changes sound very good to me. They sound like they will make a good board even better. Thanks for keeping this place open, Pundit!

[David R]

Yeah, see I tried to respond with the obvious, that Seanchai (and others) who keep claiming over and over again that I'm JUST LIKE RPG.net mods would never be able to make those kinds of attacks on RPGnet, and that in and of itself that was proof they were lying.

The reason why they are here is because this place was supposed to be a place where they could make such attacks against a Mod. This is what you promised them. You are the one who is constantly making comparisons between this place and rpgnet. Seanchai makes some good points and some bad ones, but instead of pointing this out to him or ignoring him, you chose to act in a manner which merely reinforces his perceptions about you and the rpgnet modsquad . And what a twee way your judgment was delievered. Kind of like Kuma, who responded to Seanchai's comments with verses from the Qur'an

But they kept going, so you know what? Its time to try a different tactic, yes. Because this will have the benefit of making it absolutely obviously clear what the difference is, and apparently granting Seanchai his own little reality that he so desperately wanted.  So just for him, I'm going to be EXACTLY like an RPGnet mod.

Good for you. Seanchai, the guy who has always been against banning people. The guy who constantly tell people like me, to put folks on IL if we can't stand the comments they make. The guy who constantly tells folks if certain threads bother them so much, don't fucking read them and who follows this advice himself.

The one guy who you know will sniff around the moderation section and brawl with moderators if he thinks said moderators aren't living up to their end of the bargain. The pedantic motherfucker who in this case happens to be right (mostly) about what you promised and what you do. But go ahead and think he's the one with the reality problem.

Trying to deceptively and maliciously claim that when I move a thread I'm just like RPGnet mods who topic-ban entire (TRUE) topics like Brain Damage or ban people at the slightest sign of resistance, while here I take on massive levels of DAILY attacks and insults directed at me, mostly by people with no real interest in this site succeeding, is an attack on free speech, yes. Because its trying to cast doubts on the very freedom of speech that is available here for the sake of harming this place.

I never made any such claim. I said you were Mirror Ron because that's the reality. Ron makes ridiculous claims about gamers....as do you. Ron divides games into dodgy categories whilst you just divide them into rpgs and not rpgs.  Am I supposed to feel sorry for you. You spew shit about gamers every single day. When folks return fire, you claim they are attacking free speech, when most times it has nothing to do with moderation but what you say about games. It all sounds so Orwellian...."attacking my Mod style means attacking free speech" - chilling.

I did read what you wrote. You wrote something implying that when it was no longer convenient to me I would ban discussion about the Landmarks just like Ron Edwards BANNED all discussion about GNS theory on his site claiming that his theory was perfect and thus required no criticism.

Yes. Notice I never made any comments about how he runs his site , just that in theory, Ron and you are pretty similar.

The people attacking me are the ones who compare me to these guys, and yet ironically many of them (not seanchai, but you certainly) seem to have a total double standard.  I guess in some people's eyes its ok for Castro to jail political dissidents in cuba, but if a US president were to arrest someone who threw a molotov cocktail at a cop he'd be commiting crimes against humanity.

*snort* What's with Swine and their dodgy analogies. Y'know I would love for you to point out my double standards. I have no interest in the way how Ron runs his site because I don't post there. The ony reason why he or his site comes up is because from the beginning that's how you defined this place.

Likewise, the same people who are attacking me claiming that I've become a "fascist" for MOVING threads seem to be just hunky-fucking-dory with Ron Edwards CLOSING threads and banning discussion on anything he wants.

Like who ? People are just judging you by what you say and do. You seem to bring up Ron, as a defence mechanism. Y'know just because people comment about your mod style does not mean they endorse Ron's or even if they have ever heard of him.

I'm the Pundit.

Kinda of the problem. The persona has become incoherent. Nisarg was a whiney troll but this one is getting pretty tiresome. All I can say is, Don't Be a Menace to theRPGsite While Smoking Your Pipe in the Hood.

Regards,
David R

[peteramthor]

The changes work for me, about time for some changes for the better.  Hell I'm glad to see more actual defined rules rather than 'back in this post this decision was made....' kinda stuff.  No theory talk if fine also, can't stand GNS or anybody elses theory ideas for that matter.  Landmarks... okay, don't see myself discussing those either.

[HinterWelt]

Hell, if it was my money that kept a vanity website operational, that's what I would do.  

It is community donations that pay for the site unless that has changed.

[shalvayez]

Thanks, Pundit, and BTW, I appreciate the freedom your "modding" gives me to call a stupid fuck, a stupid fuck. I also appreciate the fact that your forums aren't inundated by Exalted wienies.
 
 I would not have nearly as much patience with some of these needledicks as you do, and would be sorely tempted to hit the delete button on their accounts rather than to read any more of their condescending posts.
 
 But hey, maybe some of the bozos can run forums of their own, and we can see how THEY do it?