Wow.  Just...wow.  And I think of all the times I tried to defend theRPGsite over on RPG.net, contesting the notion that it had a prevailing climate of unrelenting negativity.

!i!

Quote from: shalvayez;302550Fuck, if they hate it so much here, why don't they go back to their gay little clubhouse?  Instead of sending a shill to start a thread about Pundit's alleged "plagiarism", why not just leave it alone, and stick to their game of Wet Biscuit that's going on at Haven?  Nobody forces them to read threads here or post, but HERE THEY ARE!  Attention whores, each and every single one of them.  Woot! They have a gay little clubhouse now, and they can exclude Pundit! Big fucking deal, go back to your pathetic little hovel, girls.
 
In fact, I propose you change the name to RPG Brothel, so you little trollops can ply your trade a bit better.

Dude. Not cool.

Quote from: Imperator;302561Dude. Not cool.

 What's wrong with the simple fact that if they don't like how this site is run, they should just get the fuck out? There are other RPG forums out there, in fact, the fuckers put one up. Le the one they put up fly on  it's own merits. Don't send a shill to this one trying to stir up shit.
 
 Or is calling RPG Haven "a gay little clubhouse" what has your panties knotted?

Well, it has several components.

Pseudo-homophobic slurs are not cool in my book,. I don't get really stressed about that, but I don't find them classy, ingenous, or specially good. I like a good insult as much as the next guy, but going down the gay route is really trite.

Second, I don't think no one send a shill nowhere to do shit. That belongs into the paranoid realm. Not here. Seriously, I don't see anyone at any board tryong to bring on a war or something, because all the Internet wars are essentially fictitious. Therefore, my first point is even more relevant, because you have even less need to use that kind of shitty slurs.

Third, the people who didn't like some things here did what you advise them to do. But posting in one site is not a exclusive thing. I enjoy reading and posting stuff here. And in RPG.net. And the Haven. There's no reason for me to do otherwise. So?

I see this site has filled Jackalope's vacancy for the position of "Angry Shut-In".

!i!

Quote from: HinterWeltThis site is based on hate. Hate the swine. Hate people who do not play my games. Hate those guys because they aren't playing the games I approve of.

Bill, I don't really think this site is based on hate at all. Maybe I'm being ultra-charitable here, but I just don't see it that way.

Quote from: RPGPunditBullshit. This site is based on FREEDOM. The freedom to talk about RPGs without fear of being banned for political incorrectness or daring to criticize the darling games, and freedom to talk about RPGs without being swamped, subverted, and forced to use the lingo of dubious Forge-theory.

Pundit tends to get a little unnecessarily riled up (and possessive) at times, but he does have a point. Sometimes, crankiness is a side-effect of the freedom to discuss things without the constant threat of the "banhammer" hanging over our heads. And when I say "freedom", I don't mean the freedom to post porn and spam every fifteen minutes.

The only major thing I would change about this place is the redirection of all the Forge stuff into the "Other Games" section, or wherever it goes. Pundit, I understand your hatred of it, but it might be best to put it back in the main rpg section, at least as an experiment.

Before I continue, let me explain my position about the matter. I have no interest in playing Forge games. Those games have waaaaay too narrow a focus for my tastes. Furthermore, I think Edwards is a prick. His essays are so much pseudo-intellectual trash, and his moderator behavior is horribly oppressive, so much so that even rpgnet looks like a bastion of freedom in comparison. Amazingly, his "ideas" are viral, in that people inspired by his site start inundating other places with discussions of GNS, game theory, and other pseudo-intellectual claptrap.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. That form of fappery is combated by the natural momentum of this site. That shit gained traction on rpgnet, because the moderation there did not allow you to critique the very premise of Forge ideas in an open and honest way on our own terms. Wasn't it forbidden to discuss Edwards' "brain damage" essay? :rolleyes:

Anyway, I don't think that would happen here. There are certain games that people want to talk about here, but don't, because it's considered inappropriate by "ye Pundit Himself". I say let people discuss whatever roleplaying games they want. That shit doesn't interest me personally, but if that gives someone else a thrill, why not? We can handle it now. We've grown enough.

Quote from: RPGPunditYour site, on the other hand, is based on hate; or at the very least on being the "anti-pundit rpgsite-clone".

I gotta disagree with you on this one, old chap. Their site is no more based on hate than therpgsite is, however, I do agree with your second point. I don't think Bill and the others are being completely honest with themselves about the fact that their place is a reaction against this one. That doesn't mean their site won't eventually become something great. It already looks good (though the Haven's layout makes it hard for me to concentrate...).

I think the real problem here is that people don't like the way you personally, "the Pundit" talk in discussion, but they're mostly satisfied with your actual moderation abilities, which is something I find really weird.

A question I ask of Bill, is....what if Pundit signs up for your site, and acts exactly the way he does now? Will he be banned? I'd like to know the answer to that one...

Quote from: Imperator;302568Well, it has several components.

Pseudo-homophobic slurs are not cool in my book,. I don't get really stressed about that, but I don't find them classy, ingenous, or specially good. I like a good insult as much as the next guy, but going down the gay route is really trite.

Second, I don't think no one send a shill nowhere to do shit. That belongs into the paranoid realm. Not here. Seriously, I don't see anyone at any board tryong to bring on a war or something, because all the Internet wars are essentially fictitious. Therefore, my first point is even more relevant, because you have even less need to use that kind of shitty slurs.

Third, the people who didn't like some things here did what you advise them to do. But posting in one site is not a exclusive thing. I enjoy reading and posting stuff here. And in RPG.net. And the Haven. There's no reason for me to do otherwise. So?

 I don't actually see you bitching like a lot of these cocksmokers do.
 Second, I'm generally against slurs myself, and hell, I'm for gay marriage, but I'm going to call RPG Haven like it is, and that's basically a backpatting site, basically a daisy chain.
 
 Third, the shill was the bloke who started this thread.. RPG Haven wanted some attention, needed somebody to whore their name around a bit. And now they have their attention. Even negative attention brings people, as I came here based on shit said over on RPGnet.
 
 You're right, I shouldn't have stooped to using pseudo-homophobia for the post, but it got the point across.

Quote from: shalvayez;302550Fuck, if they hate it so much here, why don't they go back to their gay little clubhouse?  Instead of sending a shill to start a thread about Pundit's alleged "plagiarism", why not just leave it alone, and stick to their game of Wet Biscuit that's going on at Haven?  Nobody forces them to read threads here or post, but HERE THEY ARE!  Attention whores, each and every single one of them.  Woot! They have a gay little clubhouse now, and they can exclude Pundit! Big fucking deal, go back to your pathetic little hovel, girls.
 
In fact, I propose you change the name to RPG Brothel, so you little trollops can ply your trade a bit better.

You could have vented in any number of ways without resorting to this kind of really, really stupid, inappropriate slurs. I guess you wanted your hate to come across... and it worked.

That's a good 8/10 on my ignoramus meter, just a bit short on retarded, racist references and/or threats.
There's still room for improvement, I guess.

Quote from: shalvayez;302550Fuck, if they hate it so much here, why don't they go back to their gay little clubhouse?  Instead of sending a shill to start a thread about Pundit's alleged "plagiarism", why not just leave it alone, and stick to their game of Wet Biscuit that's going on at Haven?  Nobody forces them to read threads here or post, but HERE THEY ARE!  Attention whores, each and every single one of them.  Woot! They have a gay little clubhouse now, and they can exclude Pundit! Big fucking deal, go back to your pathetic little hovel, girls.
 
In fact, I propose you change the name to RPG Brothel, so you little trollops can ply your trade a bit better.

Dude, take a chill pill. Seriously. You're being a dick. And please change your avatar. It gives me the creeps...

Hmm, for some of the folks not versed on debate. There is a very basic idea called "Framing the Debate". It is a method where you take a point, verbally draw a frame around it where your point (the one you wish to make) and your strengths are inside the frame and the opponents are outside. So, for an example, we are here discussing the RPGHaven. It is considered "bad" because, as the argument has been framed, it is just "theRPGSite without the Pindit". Let's examine that.

The point that has been shved frantically ouside the frame is that the pundit could well go register. There is no restriction. There is no rule prohibiting him. He may not wish to because he feel the community would not accept him or that he would not find value for his time by the discussion presented by the culture there. Perfectly reasonable. I would not advise anyone to do otherwise.

Second, inside the frame is that somehow the Haven is dedicated to "Destroying theRPGSite". This is false. Shoved outside the frame is that I nor Jim have ever said we would "destroy" this site. In fact, pundit has said he is actively scooping threads from the Haven to "And then they have the gall to get all upset because I'm doing what needs to be done to make sure their site can never be about anything BUT "theRPGsite without the Pundit"?". For the record, I could care less about such things however it bothered some posters OF BOTH SITES. Now, how does the admin of this site respond? Threats, ad hominem and hatred. Not surprising.

Finally, part of the framing is on content. In reference to his admitted copying of threads, we obviously are generating contnet and thread ideas beyond what RPGSite is...else there would be no need for copying the threads.

I trust most of you will see what he is doing here, defining the field so he can "win". Hopefully you will be able to move past that and decide for yourselves.

Now, I would like to expand the explanation of the Haven. In otherwords, take the discussion to beyond theRPGSite as folks seem to be buying into strongly worded opinion as fact. Let's look at RPG.Net as one of the motivations for me.

I have posted there as HinterWelt for 7 years (before that for a year or so under a different handle). I have seen the days when moderators could not ban users, the board did not support it at the time, and had to ask the admins. I have seen when tech advancement allowed the mods to ban folks and they were like kids with new toy. I have seen how the moderation has come to a "kinder, gentler" level (although I would argue that i would say
"different kind of"). I learned a lot about what I wanted on that board. The biggest four things I took away from that was:
1. I like low moderation but not no moderation. 4 Chan is not for me.
2. I like general discussion where all games can be in play, whether it is a reference to monopoly or 4e.
3. I like a search function.
4. Rate of turn over, especially without a search function, is not fun at RPG.Net.

To that end I have gone to great pains to have functioning search, low moderation (despite claims elsewhere in this thread, no bannings and no topic bans have occurred) and how important culture is to my enjoyment of a board.

One could say that my coming here was a reaction to RPG.Net and this ultimately, the Haven is my reaction to RPG.net and not this place. They would be just as wrong as those that say that the Haven is nothing more than a reaction to this place.

Now, I am not preferring an either or condition to people here or at the Haven. Join whatever forums you wish, post as you like. I do not define a "polis" of people who count. If you post over at the Haven (or even you don't) I will listen to criticisms and try to make it better. I will not try to evoke some sort of patriotism to "Our Board!!". I merely welcome you to take a look. We do not have any hidden forums, no secret adminning forum. What you see is what you get and if you do not like it, I can appreciate that. After all, it is why I made the Haven;i.e. there were no sites I liked.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302578Dude, take a chill pill. Seriously. You're being a dick. And please change your avatar. It gives me the creeps...

 I'll chill. I'll lay off a bit. The avatar stays, your request is ridiculous.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302570Bill, I don't really think this site is based on hate at all. Maybe I'm being ultra-charitable here, but I just don't see it that way.

Not at all SL. You should note that this is all my opinion just as this is yours and the cool thing, we can both be right. You see this board differently than I do. You see lively debate. I see misogyny and cheap gay jokes. You see definitional argument free of unnescessary theory talk, I see "Hate Swine!'. You see a place to get away from moderation on RPG.Net, I see "We hate RPG.Net". I do not think it was always this way. The culture shifted  and maybe I changed. I decided to do something about it when apparently I was supposed to be a good soldier and keep plugging away here.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302570Pundit tends to get a little unnecessarily riled up (and possessive) at times, but he does have a point. Sometimes, crankiness is a side-effect of the freedom to discuss things without the constant threat of the "banhammer" hanging over our heads. And when I say "freedom", I don't mean the freedom to post porn and spam every fifteen minutes.

See, and I think this is a point you are misunderstanding about my position. Sure, I have made no secret out of my dislike of pundit, mostly due to his "persona" and the feeling I am talking to an imaginary construct when I engage him. My issue is that the culture has shifted. This is not even necessarily a bad thing (I think it is but it could be a plus for others) but it is one that peddles the kind of discussion we see in this thread. You may see a discussion between you and me in a reasoned mode but I see a crapload of ad hominem (heck some of it from me). I don't like that, so I did something about that.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302570The only major thing I would change about this place is the redirection of all the Forge stuff into the "Other Games" section, or wherever it goes. Pundit, I understand your hatred of it, but it might be best to put it back in the main rpg section, at least as an experiment.

Before I continue, let me explain my position about the matter. I have no interest in playing Forge games. Those games have waaaaay too narrow a focus for my tastes. Furthermore, I think Edwards is a prick. His essays are so much pseudo-intellectual trash, and his moderator behavior is horribly oppressive, so much so that even rpgnet looks like a bastion of freedom in comparison. Amazingly, his "ideas" are viral, in that people inspired by his site start inundating other places with discussions of GNS, game theory, and other pseudo-intellectual claptrap.

And let me say, I think the same way. I do not play forge games, Any I have I have not really enjoyed. I used to be a the most trad of trad designers but now, apparently, I am swine...again. So, I am not championing Forge games, I am trying to create a culture, a board where you really can have AndyK talk about his Tensho game, or droog can use a reference to HeroQuest or whatever weird play experience he has without getting pounded. See this thread for an example. We had a pretty good discussion going but it got derailed pretty good.

So, though I think your idea is a good one, I don't know that it would make a difference and this is the important point, IT SHOULDN'T. I am not saying this site should change. Obviously there are a lot of people who are really excited about this place and that is great. I am not. Doesn't mean I hate it or want it closed, just is not the place for me anymore. I am honestly happy you are o.k. with it and hope you continue to try and improve it.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;302570A question I ask of Bill, is....what if Pundit signs up for your site, and acts exactly the way he does now? Will he be banned? I'd like to know the answer to that one...

He will be subject to the same rules as others and the same process as anyone. I can't promise he wont be banned. I think if he did come over he would hate it because he would constantly be thinking he was contributing to the "enemy". That is not a good place to be. On the other hand, if he comes over and uses reasoned debate, avoid ad hominem (yeah, there will always be some), I think a lot of the posters would welcome him...and some would not but we have a healthy ignore function.

So, short answer, it would not be up to me but up to Pundit. If he is just there to call people swine, I do not know he would get much response. I think it would be more likely that if he were to show up peddling his swine-hate he would be ignored in short order but I imagine he would not be banned.

QuoteThe point that has been shved frantically ouside the frame is that the pundit could well go register. There is no restriction. There is no rule prohibiting him. He may not wish to because he feel the community would not accept him or that he would not find value for his time by the discussion presented by the culture there. Perfectly reasonable. I would not advise anyone to do otherwise.

And the black guy is technically welcome to join the WASP-dominated country club . . .

What a bunch of tired fucking folderol.  That ploy is no more fucking believable than it is when Andy and his buddies at Storygames were throwing it around back during the last conflict with that site.

You and I both know how well that would fucking go, and how he'd be taken there.  It's bullshit.

Quote from: HinterWelt;302591And let me say, I think the same way. I do not play forge games, Any I have I have not really enjoyed. I used to be a the most trad of trad designers but now, apparently, I am swine...again. So, I am not championing Forge games, I am trying to create a culture, a board where you really can have AndyK talk about his Tensho game, or droog can use a reference to HeroQuest or whatever weird play experience he has without getting pounded. See this thread for an example. We had a pretty good discussion going but it got derailed pretty good.

You are making the assumption here that by not expressing your preference/bias, the board will have no preference/bias.  Which is obviously incorrect.

There is nothing to stop any number of people from signing up and deriding Droog for playing Forge games over there any more than over here.  Nothing prevented him from continuing to post about them over here.  I think Pundit is off his nut about any number of things, and I can say so without having to worry that he is going to boot me for insulting him, or disagreeing with him, or anything like that.  If I keep bringing it up, and everyone else is getting sick of it, he is fully within his rights to get rid of me at that point.

The point is:  I understand if some things are discouraged or people are made to think it is not acceptable to talk about something, but the fact remains.  Droog chose to stop posting about HeroQuest, or what have you.  Mr Skach (and several others) and I would literally not miss a chance to jump each others' shit over various non-rpg topics.  Pundit has said time and time again that non-RPG topics are discouraged, and recently had to take measures to restrict those conversations.  This was not due to Mr Skach, myself or anyone else; it was due largely to the actions of two people.  Nonetheless, up until that time, none of us were prevented from discussing whatever the hell we wanted in any manner we wanted.  We shouted, we threw all manner of insult, we carried on for page after page boring the hell out of everyone that wasn't us.

What this boils down to is, Droog (or whomever) will not be wholly free of detractors just because the RPG Haven won't marginalize his favourite games.  For the sake of argument, let's say I have some cult of personality that is signed up on your forum.  If PosterA says X, Y, and Z are what make CoolForgeGame really good, and I come in to decry X, Y, and Z as preposterous frippery by Prof. Batphallus, whereupon my minions swarm in as well, what is to keep PosterA from simply being overwhelmed by the StormBringer Sabotage Society?  Hell, maybe I am not even overt about it, just mentioning it on another board or by email, and they swoop in.  Maybe PosterA doesn't suffer fools gladly, maybe they don't have the courage of their convictions, maybe they don't like confrontation or don't feel the need to explain themselves every three posts.

Whatever the reason, there are any number that have nothing to do with 'Forge games are marginalized'.

Quote from: StormBringer;302602I am not defending theRPGsite in any way, but you are making the assumption here that by not expressing your preference/bias, the board will have no preference/bias.  Which is obviously incorrect.

Allow me to clarify. I agree. What I meant was that it will not have an agenda based on my views or, if I can help it, Jim's. I am not going to say "All trad games are outdated crap" or "We do not discuss swine games here". The community may swing to professing an ideology, and with argument and discussion, I will try and be as inclusive as possible. I will always try to have a board that encourages discussion of all RPGs (and games for that matter).

Quote from: StormBringer;302602There is nothing to stop any number of people from signing up and deriding Droog for playing Forge games over there any more than over here.  Nothing prevented him from continuing to post about them over here.  I think Pundit is off his nut about any number of things, and I can say so without having to worry that he is going to boot me for insulting him, or disagreeing with him, or anything like that.  If I keep bringing it up, and everyone else is getting sick of it, he is fully within his rights to get rid of me at that point.

Yeah, but again, this is a point of culture. The people I initially invited I did so with purpose. I knew they were open to many games and game styles. That is not an exclusive statement, merely to say, I knew certain people and invited them. This forms the base of the culture. Now, I fully agree, it may spiral off into some sort of hate fest. I will most likely stop posting there then as well and maybe make a new board, with a new strategy, with the hope of getting a certain culture to flourish. I fully admit, it will not be easy but I do think it is a worthy goal.

Quote from: StormBringer;302602The point is:  I understand if some things are discouraged or people are made to think it is not acceptable to talk about something, but the fact remains.  Droog chose to stop posting about HeroQuest, or what have you.  Mr Skach (and several others) and I would literally not miss a chance to jump each others' shit over various non-rpg topics.  Pundit has said time and time again that non-RPG topics are discouraged, and recently had to take measures to restrict those conversations.  This was not due to Mr Skach, myself or anyone else; it was due largely to the actions of two people.  Nonetheless, up until that time, none of us were prevented from discussing whatever the hell we wanted in any manner we wanted.  We shouted, we threw all manner of insult, we carried on for page after page boring the hell out of everyone that wasn't us.

i.e. the culture shifted, the focus of the board was clarified. It is bound to leave some folks behind.

And that description of the thread...sounds familiar.

Quote from: StormBringer;302602What this boils down to is, Droog (or whomever) will not be wholly free of detractors just because the RPG Haven won't marginalize his favourite games.  For the sake of argument, let's say I have some cult of personality that is signed up on your forum.  If PosterA says X, Y, and Z are what make CoolForgeGame really good, and I come in to decry X, Y, and Z as preposterous frippery by Prof. Batphallus, whereupon my minions swarm in as well, what is to keep PosterA from simply being overwhelmed by the StormBringer Sabotage Society?  Hell, maybe I am not even overt about it, just mentioning it on another board or by email, and they swoop in.  Maybe PosterA doesn't suffer fools gladly, maybe they don't have the courage of their convictions, maybe they don't like confrontation or don't feel the need to explain themselves every three posts.

No, he wont. There will be people who detract from his games. There will be discussion. But it will not devolve to "You are swine!" or "You're gay!". I mean, it will, but the culture will, hopefully, not allow the derailing of interesting and useful threads (or crappy ones for that matter). Someone will step up and say, that ain't cool, stop it.

Quote from: StormBringer;302602Whatever the reason, there are any number that have nothing to do with 'Forge games are marginalized'.

The cool thing is, the community will decide, hopefully. I have lost my trust that anything I say here will be viewed as any of the insults you see up thread.

Here is an insight into my reasons. I actually hesitated in telling Pundit that his constitution was out of date and needed to be updated. This was one of those moments, like on RPG.Net where I hesitated to post because I was not sure the origin of gypsy vs roma. It made me realize that I did not fit here any more. Not a "I hate it!11!!" but a kind of, "hmm, I think I will go do something else". So I did. I might add, Pundit was perfectly reasonable. I found it to be a disconcerting issue. Like being lied to but told you are the stupid one for allowing yourself to be lied to.

Now, that is about me and my revelations. I fear, again, SB, you like others take it as some sort of empirical argument against this site. It is not. Too many people have been assigning me my motivations and I have been trying to clear them up. You motivations for posting at the Haven, I am absolutely positive, are radically different from mine. And I am cool with that.

So, in the end, I can tell you why I go to the Haven. I can tell you why I made the site. You have to decide if you want to or not and why you feel it does or does not add worth to your posting.