Alrighty then, anyone who's interested in the rich portfolio of issues JimBob used to bring to the table in rpg.net Tangency should do a search for posts by ChefKyle.

Good luck finding the racism, sexism, and homophobia. JimBob the Klan member!

You're seriously comparing me to this racist nutjob? Fuck you, Pierce. Fuck you, your mother, and the horse you came in on.

Quote from: JimBobOzInteresting. So the person with the vile opinion isn't stirring shit, the person who calls him on it is stirring up shit.

Bob: "Jim, you're an ugly cunt and your mother is a bitch."
Jim: "Don't talk shit like that. Joe, Bob shouldn't talk like that, right?"
Joe: "Don't stir shit, Jim."

Fuck you, hgjs.

I have a theory, JimBobOz, that there are two types of users on this site (discounting those posting in bad faith).  The first came here because they believe in the site's vision.  The second type came here because their ass has been kicked out everywhere else.

You are of the second type.  You have no fondness for the site's policies regarding freedom of speech: if you hadn't been banned from rpg.net, you'd still be happily posting there to this day.  You would like nothing better than for this site to transform into "rpg.net, except JimBobOz isn't banned."

On a personal level, I think of you and Dominus Nox in the same way: thoroughly unpleasant people who have a lot of worthwhile things to say about RPGs.  But while Dominus Nox's words don't pose any threat to any of the many groups he insults, there is a chance that you might cause some damage to this site before people get wise to your bullshit.

Quote from: hgjsI have a theory, JimBobOz, that there are two types of users on this site (discounting those posting in bad faith).  The first came here because they believe in the site's vision.  The second type came here because their ass has been kicked out everywhere else.

You are of the second type.  

'Cept, of course, I came and posted hundreds of times here before I was banned. On his blog, RPGpundit claims my banning had to do with my membership and promotion of therpgsite.

It can't be both ways. If I was banned on rpg.net partly because of being a member of therpgsite, I cannot be posting at therpgsite solely because I was banned from rpg.net.

So your theory is bollocks.

Quote from: hgjsthere is a chance that you might cause some damage to this site before people get wise to your bullshit.

What "damage" is that, pray tell?

People might be put off posting racist shite here? This would doom us? In what way? Please explain how someone speaking in favour of the banning of someone who expresses extremely racist ideas and craps on other people's threads with off-topic insults is going to harm therpgsite. Go on, tell us. Enlighten us with your wisdom.

Quote from: JimBobOzWhat "damage" is that, pray tell?

People might be put off posting racist shite here? This would doom us? In what way? Please explain how someone speaking in favour of the banning of someone who expresses extremely racist ideas and craps on other people's threads with off-topic insults is going to harm therpgsite. Go on, tell us. Enlighten us with your wisdom.

What kind of insane forum would forbid insults against outside groups while allowing attacks against people actually on the site?  For one so vocal about how Dominus Nox should be banned for talking shit about people, you certainly seem to enjoy your freedom to insult your fellow users.

You want to drag the rpg.net idea of "protected groups" onto this site -- fuck that.  RPGPundit has openly called theists deluded freaks, and got kicked off of ENWorld for talking about what a shitty guy John Paul II was.  If this site ever does name some sacred group that's above all insults, it sure as fuck won't be a religion.

Mate, if he just said, "all Moslems are terrorists" or some stupid nonsense like that, then I would just stick with abusing him.

Insults, against individuals or groups, are not the problem, really. Saying we should kill them all is a problem. You can insult someone or something without saying they should be killed. I didn't say a damn thing about protecting this or that group.

It's like, for example, how in the USA you can say your President is a fuckhead, and should be impeached or whatever, but if you say in all seriousness that someone should shoot him, you get in trouble. The insult or criticism isn't the problem, it's the "kill them!" that's a problem. If you don't understand the distinction between insulting or criticising them, and advocating violence against them, I suggest you write a long post talking about your plans to assassinate Dubya, attach your real name and address to it, and see what happens.

Like a politician, you've not answered my question. Explain how I'm going to cause damage to this site.

Quote from: JimBobOzMate, if he just said, "all Moslems are terrorists" or some stupid nonsense like that, then I would just stick with abusing him.

Insults, against individuals or groups, are not the problem, really. Saying we should kill them all is a problem. You can insult someone or something without saying they should be killed. I didn't say a damn thing about protecting this or that group.

It's like, for example, how in the USA you can say your President is a fuckhead, and should be impeached or whatever, but if you say in all seriousness that someone should shoot him, you get in trouble. The insult or criticism isn't the problem, it's the "kill them!" that's a problem. If you don't understand the distinction between insulting or criticising them, and advocating violence against them, I suggest you write a long post talking about your plans to assassinate Dubya, attach your real name and address to it, and see what happens.

Here you go again with the totally irrelevant examples.  But I'm interested to see if this latest turn of yours is just a tactic, or if you really mean it:

If Dominus Nox says "Jews are subhuman scum, lacking in any capacity for virtue; they are a cancer on our society, and they should be deported and their ill-gotten assets seized," you think that shouldn't get him banned from this forum, so long as he doesn't talk about about his ideas for a Final Solution?

Before I seriously respond to the idea that calling for someone's death is the dividing line between what should and should not be acceptable, I want to know if that's really where you're drawing the line.

QuoteLike a politician, you've not answered my question. Explain how I'm going to cause damage to this site.

By degrading the site's principles of freedom of speech and hands-off moderation.

No, I don't know exactly where the line is. Killing? Definitely past the line. Deportation? Probably. Discriminatory job hiring practices? Fuck, I dunno.

But advocating killing entire populations is definitely beyond the pale of normal opinions in a civilised society.

And it doesn't help our site a damned bit. When I point people to therpgsite, a good number of them reject it. About half the time it's "that place is rough and obnoxious, what do you expect with RPGundit in charge." The other half the time it's "there are some real loons there, it's worse than SJGames General Chatter or rpg.net Tangency." Asking who these loons are, they point me to posts by Dominus Nox and the like.

I try to tell 'em that the rough tone grows on you after a while, and the loons keep their lunacy more or less in Off Topic, but they're not convinced.

This isn't thousands of people, of course. But it's a nonzero number - maybe a dozen or so people, active posters on other sites, have rejected therpgsite because of those two issues.

Okay, so freedom of speech is the ultimately important thing here. Does that mean I can now post up some hardcore pr0n? And again, why is mythusmage topic-banned from talking about adult-child sexual relations? Because he might actually do it? What, and he won't do it if he doesn't talk about it? No - the only difference can be is that paedophilia is offensive to people, and we don't want him to talk about things which offend us.

Well, genocide talk offends me as much as paedophilia talk offends you lot.

Quote from: JimBobOzOkay, so freedom of speech is the ultimately important thing here. Does that mean I can now post up some hardcore pr0n?

This site has never had totally-unrestricted freedom of speech.  RPGPundit makes no bones about banning people who spam the site with advertisements, or (theoretically) spam the site with disgusting or pornographic images.  He even reserves the right to ban people who come here with the deliberate agenda of causing trouble.

What all three of those things have in common is that they are attacks against the purpose of the site.

QuoteAnd again, why is mythusmage topic-banned from talking about adult-child sexual relations

Do you know the terms of the agreement between RPGPundit and mythusmage?  Because that makes one of us.

QuoteWhen I point people to therpgsite, a good number of them reject it. About half the time it's "that place is rough and obnoxious, what do you expect with RPGundit in charge." The other half the time it's "there are some real loons there, it's worse than SJGames General Chatter or rpg.net Tangency." Asking who these loons are, they point me to posts by Dominus Nox and the like.

I try to tell 'em that the rough tone grows on you after a while, and the loons keep their lunacy more or less in Off Topic, but they're not convinced.

This isn't thousands of people, of course. But it's a nonzero number - maybe a dozen or so people, active posters on other sites, have rejected therpgsite because of those two issues.

See, if this discussion were "should we make the Off-Topic forum invisible to unregistered users," I would consider this an extremely compelling post.

I would even consider this an argument for weak censorship, such as a "default ignore" list for new users.

But when the discussion is "should this guy be banned for his Off-Topic views," my vote is no.

Quote from: Christmas ApeAnd read the rest of the quote with the Mighty Red Text in it. Would you say Nox is not intentionally disruptive, going out of his way to take shots at posters  he doesn't like, and once actually starting a revenge thread about d20 because Sett doesn't like GURPS?

Well, keep in mind that this thread is to question the idea of whether either racism or advocacy of genocide should be forbidden topics on theRPGsite as a whole, or whether alternately Nox individually should be punished for his comments on said topics without actually considering that a "precedent" enshrined in the rules. But it IS to determine whether we should censor Nox on this. I think that no one should try to pretend this would be anything other than censorship. Voting for any of the first three options would be exactly a kind of censorship, for the sake of the harmony of this site perhaps, but it would be a kind of censorship, just like it is ALREADY censored on this site to post pics of hardcore pornography, provide links to illegal downloads, or publically advocate for pedophilia.
These ARE censorship, there's no if and or buts about it. Its just that in all of the three cases above the costs to the site are too grave to justify the "freedom of speech" that they represent, in particular given that none of the subjects above are subjects that are essential to talk about on this site.
Some people feel that openly advocating racism or genocide would also fit that description, along with the above subjects, of stuff that are just too costly not to censor here, that their very presence is damaging to the site.

So that is what is being debated.

As for Nox being disruptive, that's a whole other issue. essentially, he already has a topic ban on this issue, he's been expressly told not to threadcrap and post his rants on threads that are not on-topic, or to engage in personal attacks without worthwhile content on the people he hates when it is not on topic.
If you can show me where Nox has done something like this in the last month or two, then he would be sanctioned for that.


RPGPundit

Quote from: StumpydaveNox was asked to stop derailing threads with personal attacks, which he hasn't.  Don't bother using race/genocide etc as a reason to smite the guy.  Ban him 'cause he refused to follow a simple request for the good of the board.

Please please PLEASE fucking show me a thread from the last month where Nox threadcrapped and disrupted, and I will gladly bring the Spiked Baseball Bat of Great Justice out of retirement.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditor whether alternately Nox individually should be punished for his comments on said topics without actually considering that a "precedent" enshrined in the rules.

You mean, the same way that mythusmage's situation "didn't" set a precedent?

Let's not pretend that saying "this is an ad-hoc measure" will prevent people from bringing this up again the next time someone's arguing that someone else should be censored.

EDIT: I would much, much rather Dominus Nox be banned for violating a request to stop threadcrapping by the forum administrator than for any of this "unacceptable views" bullshit.

Quote from: RPGPunditPlease please PLEASE fucking show me a thread from the last month where Nox threadcrapped and disrupted, and I will gladly bring the Spiked Baseball Bat of Great Justice out of retirement.

RPGPundit

...I don't want to be in this thread. I said I wouldn't.

But have you gone back to the "Calling you out" thread JimBob necroed, where you first asked Dave to do so, and he did?

Quote from: hgjsEDIT: I would much, much rather Dominus Nox be banned for violating a request to stop threadcrapping by the forum administrator than for any of this "unacceptable views" bullshit.

This is one of those forehead-slapping moments, isn't it?

RPGPundit

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Y'know what I wish the "Off-Topic" forum was?  I wish the "Off-Topic" forum was where we talked about nerd stuff that's not politics and crap: movies and comics and stupid funny things that happened to you that day.

How often do you start topics about those things there? If you talk about it, and others are interested, they'll join in.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityYes, make the Off-Topic Forum an Other Media/Games Forum.

Where does it say a site must cater to any and all topics? I'm not interested in talking politics and religion here, or in having the resentment generated by other people's discussions of politics and religion seep into their discussions about games.

As has been stated several times, it's not catering, it's containment. If you ban socially contentious discussion, you have to start policing the site with a mod hammer to shut down discussions that turn socially contentious. The OT forum gives people somewhere to take those topics that doesn't derail threads about RPGs.

Quote from: droogSee, for some of us, there are more people than Noxious that advocate murdering people in real life--and not just tacitly. Personally, I'd put all current advocates of the Iraq war into that category, but that's me.

Are you trying to derail this thread with a political debate?

Quote from: JimBobOzYou're seriously comparing me to this racist nutjob? Fuck you, Pierce. Fuck you, your mother, and the horse you came in on.

While I have no idea what your posts at RPG.net were like, this post certainly indicates some amount of similarity between you and Nox.

Quote from: JimBobOzInsults, against individuals or groups, are not the problem, really. Saying we should kill them all is a problem. You can insult someone or something without saying they should be killed. I didn't say a damn thing about protecting this or that group.

This is bolded just to get everyone's attention, because it's not just a question for JimBob. I'm only quoting him to show what the catalyst was for me asking. Can someone point me to a post where Nox calls for genocide that isn't a sarcastic reply to someone calling him a racist that wants genocide? I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but if it's the subject of the debate, it'd be nice to be able to look for it. I did a search for his name a genocide and nothing came up, but there's so many other ways to phrase it that unless I know what I'm looking for I may never find it. Hopefully someone that remembers the general wording of a particular post could find it more easily.

Quote from: JimBobOzWell, genocide talk offends me as much as paedophilia talk offends you lot.

Ah, but you're not a part of the ruling elite, so you merely being offended by something doesn't make it an important issue.