Apparition13, please feel free to add me to your Ignore List.

Considering the only two posters I've ever had a serious problem with on RPGSite, were the poster who constantly talked about his love for little boys (forgot what his name was), and Gleichman, I feel pretty comfortable that I'm not the unreasonable one.

Everyone else I feel I have argued in good faith with, and feel that they have in turn responded in kind. I began that same way with both of those two gentlemen, but they have worn away the benefit of the doubt. This was not accomplished in a single post (hell, anyone can have a bad day), but a history of their posts.

And even amongst that, I did ask questions, snarky questions to be sure, since I find the claim about "Highly detailed and exacting positioning" counterintuitive to his 'Heisenberg Principle of Position". His entire premise is flawed, which I had the cardinal sin of pointing out years ago to him as well, when he was berating all of us as plebs, who enjoyed "Theatre of the Mind" to using a battlemap.

Quote from: Will;774872Marleycat, your entire involvement in that thread was to take potshots at Gleichman and throw feces at him constantly.

You had absolutely nothing productive to say in the thread.

Neither did Zak.

Gleichman took the entire can of gasoline and upended it on his head, but let's be honest, there were plenty of people eagerly tossing matches at him.

Oh yes I did. Just because you didn't listen don't come painting me out as some villian. What he did is exactly what he does everytime he decides to show up every 6 months or so. And it ends the exact same way everytime without fail. Gleichman is the ONLY person I have on IL here and that took some serious doing on his part.

Quote from: apparition13;774699He's not the only one that could have used some lube.

Can you not see how telling someone they are a terrible parent and hate their kids might draw a bit of a negative reaction? How it might not help your argument at all? How about the only thing it will do is inflame things?

If he calls you a cumstain, call him one back. Don't bring family into it.

Implying you are a terrible parent is saying something about your family.

Look - ah, fuck it. One last time, this time with overkill. The numbers are post numbers, I've left the names off since I can't multiquote a closed thread and it was too much work. I've also left most of Gleichman's responses out. Yes, they had snark and PAs aplenty. I'm bolding what I think are the over the line attacks using family. I think the unbolded ones were probably okay in isolation, but in volume like here they are a problem as well.

Gleichman posts, there's discussion, things are going okay,

Then comes the "talking behind his back in a thread he can see". If you really want to belittle someone, take to PMs where they can't see them and it's actually behind their back. Doing it in public like this is like insulting someone sitting at your junior high lunch table while pretending they don't exist.

I also decided to underline all these Gleichman insulting asides between posters that weren't written to Gleichman once I saw how many of them there are.
Aaaaand of course it had to be Zak. After all the crap from the last few weeks, I am so disappoint. What's the point of posting this in the first place? Total thread crap, and the thread is sure to go pear shaped now.


34 and 35, Gleichman responds to the topic, 36 he responds to 32.  38 he responds to 29. Both 36 and 38 are PA-ish, but in context they come after the above snark. 40, GA on gamers who like things to go their own way.



The thread has now become heated, and personal. Gleichman responds in kind to many of the following posts.



This is actually the first "you're a bad parent" post.Gleichman responded with this:


Safe for the moment, the thread doesn't blow up.



Fixed your type is fun to do, but it's still passive-aggro bs.



I missed it, this is the first Novastar reference to Gleichman being a terrible parent.



Fortunately it was buried in a long post, so everyone else missed it too.

What, someone's stupid enough to have kids with him?

Gleichman in response to 183:



Bear in mind at this point there have been by my count (which likely missed some) 34 posts either directly attacking Gleichman or, more commonly, insulting him while talking past him. Is it really a surprise he might say something like this given all the rest of the PAs directed at him?


Fuse lit...
Followed by thanking his son for his service. Interesting juxtaposition, that.



Good quotes and all, but the implication that the poster thinks Gleichman is an idiot comes through.



Since we missed it the first time, Novastar decides to double down and say it again. Thanks Novastar.*



and BOOM! Gleichman in response to Novastar's post 189. This time he saw the implication that first came in 173:



Blood is in the water, sharks are starting to frenzy.

Here's a fun idea; why don't you go out to a mall, and walk up to everyone you see who you think might be a bad parent, and then very reasonably show them why logically they are bad parents. See how it goes. Or in not so snarky words, you might think you're being reasonable here, but people aren't reasonable where their kids and their relationships with their kids are concerned. Appealing to reason is futile. If you do it anyway you're being an idiot. I presume you aren't an idiot, so learn this lesson.

Uncritically accepting Novastar's spin.


The audience egging the sharks on.



Regarding  "hiding behind the flag". Gleichman loses it over this: "You just inferred he's stupid and a flawed person, because he made a different call than you in an RPG game." This: "The very idea that one of sons could be killed defending your sorry ass right to defame people online and throw unrelated words into a father's mouth to make an attack that had to be Satan's own creation REPULSES ME." is directed squarely at the implication that he is calling his own son's stupid. It doesn't have anything to do with hurt feelings over a gaming discussion, it has to do with an attack on his relationship with his sons. And it isn't hiding behind the flag, it's saying that Novastar is so repulsive they don't deserve constitutional protections. It's a PA, not hiding. Hiding behind the flag would be claiming that an attack on him is unfair because he is a veteran, or because his sons are. That doesn't happen here. Saying "you don't deserve the privilege of being defended by my son" isn't the same as claiming a privilege because his son is a vet. The reason I've bolded these is because they again play into the family dynamic.


If I'd been paying more attention to how much shit he had been dealing with, I wouldn't have posted this. In isolation it's pretty aggressive give and take, in the context of the thread it's piling on.



One Horse Town expresses disappointment at the thread.



One Horse Town closes the thread.

*********

That took a while.

Final analysis:

1. Attacking people based on their family relationships, including implying or saying they are bad parents, will get your ass kicked in public. It's OTT, it's stupid, it makes you look like a bully, and it nukes threads. Don't do it.

2. I knew there were a lot of PAs in the thread, I didn't realize how many of them involved posters discussing what an awful person Gleichman was amongst themselves. If you're going to be an asshole and insult someone don't be a chickenshit, insult them directly; address it to them. If you want to talk behind their back, take it to PM so you can actually talk behind their back.

I really want to emphasize this point. Until I pulled all these quotes, I didn't know how much this was happening. Keep an eye out. I think these kinds of posts have a pretty corrosive effect on the site.

3. If someone annoys you that much, IL them, and stay out of their threads, even if the threads look interesting. And if you should wander into their range, don't engage, and don't talk about them out in the open.

4. No-one can admit to being in the wrong, since they think it means they are an intrinsically horrible person rather than someone who made a mistake or got carried away. Ironically Gleichman got this right; he thought his son made a GMing mistake, but didn't think that meant he was a horrible person.

5. Try and be aware of what is happening in the thread beyond just your participation. This was where my mistake lay, I had tunnel vision focused on my exchange with Brian and missed how many posts there were that were PAs. Someone may be acting dickish in part because they are getting it from all sides. Don't pile on when you see that.

6. Hopefully some of the neutrals took something useful away from this.

7. Slather that lube over your posts and maybe the site will have less friction.

 
*Yes, this is a PA.

You need to either get a life or go find an emotionally safe zone to post at.

Quote from: Novastar;774910Apparition13, please feel free to add me to your Ignore List.

Considering the only two posters I've ever had a serious problem with on RPGSite, were the poster who constantly talked about his love for little boys (forgot what his name was), and Gleichman, I feel pretty comfortable that I'm not the unreasonable one.

Everyone else I feel I have argued in good faith with, and feel that they have in turn responded in kind. I began that same way with both of those two gentlemen, but they have worn away the benefit of the doubt. This was not accomplished in a single post (hell, anyone can have a bad day), but a history of their posts.

And even amongst that, I did ask questions, snarky questions to be sure, since I find the claim about "Highly detailed and exacting positioning" counterintuitive to his 'Heisenberg Principle of Position". His entire premise is flawed, which I had the cardinal sin of pointing out years ago to him as well, when he was berating all of us as plebs, who enjoyed "Theatre of the Mind" to using a battlemap.

Please, add me to your Ignore List as well Apparition 13.

I request the same Apparition 13 .  *Curtsies*

Quote from: Novastar;774910Apparition13, please feel free to add me to your Ignore List.

Considering the only two posters I've ever had a serious problem with on RPGSite, were the poster who constantly talked about his love for little boys (forgot what his name was), and Gleichman, I feel pretty comfortable that I'm not the unreasonable one..

mythusmage or something like that?  I feel left out that you haven't had a serious problem with me.  Everyone hates me

Quote from: Sacrosanct;775013mythusmage or something like that?  I feel left out that you haven't had a serious problem with me.  Everyone hates me

I'll try harder in the future to be an argumentive prig.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;775013mythusmage or something like that?  I feel left out that you haven't had a serious problem with me.  Everyone hates me

Well really? I could go Sybil if it entertains me. You do know that Mythnage or whatever is a SA goon? It's saddens me that you guys think I am so stupid. And yes Sacrosanct you suck.

Quote from: Will;774774I can admit to being wrong.

I should have left the thread earlier when it was clear what Gleichman was about. As I said in the thread, I was seduced by being in an environment that was less jackbooted than previous forums I've been on.

I agree that most of the 20s posts were unwarranted sniping. If you don't ever listen to Gliechman... don't post in a thread he started?

Thank you, I appreciate the open mind.

QuoteAs for my quotes, did you notice Gleichman's sig?

That's horrific. And it's also very appropriate to the tone and style of Gleichman's arguments, which is what my shift in posting in the thread was about -- realizing that he's not actually interested in a discussion, that he is absolutely intolerant of contrasting views, however he might pay lip service to story games.

The point of the quote is that sooner or later you have to quit waffling and take a position. Is climate change real? Should abortion be legal? What kind of grand strategy should the U.S. take with respect to a rising China now, and a rising India a generation or two later? Should we build an interstate bypass? What do you want for dinner?

Now if it also means you must then hold this position regardless of future information, then yes, it's pretty stupid, but I don't think that's what Buckley meant. Personally I think it was an "aren't I clever" response to what he saw as a "yeah man, just keep your mind open" mentality that seemed to disregard evidence in favor of treating all sides as equivalent. Which we can see in the media, when being open minded seems to mean having one climate denialist on with one climate scientist when debating global warming rather than doing it in an auditorium with one climate denialist and 99 climate scientists.

I'm open to the idea that I may be reading Buckley too generously.

Quote from: jeff37923;774973You need to either get a life or go find an emotionally safe zone to post at.

This is a safe zone; no second guessing whether what you want to post will get you banned.

Quote from: Novastar;774910Apparition13, please feel free to add me to your Ignore List.

Quote from: jeff37923;774974Please, add me to your Ignore List as well Apparition 13.

Quote from: Marleycat;774997I request the same Apparition 13 .  *Curtsies*

Nah, y'all are being silly. I generally just read the posts and don't even notice who is writing them. Besides, the only three people I've ever IL'd are people whose posting style, rather than content, irritated me. I haven't really noticed anything objectionable about any of you and your posting outside of that thread, but then again I haven't subjected many threads to this kind of analysis. Seriously, I have nothing personal against any of you (and Novastar, I apologize for the aggro directed at you in the "overkill" post).



Just a final request here, try an experiment in empathy. Look at my post 87, and replace Gleichman with yourself. Would you feel a little persecuted if you were being talked to, and about, like that? I'm not talking so much about the specifics, although those are relevant, as the quantity. How do you think you would respond to that volume of personal animosity? Like he did, or differently? How did you respond to Gleichman when he retaliated, and what might that say about how you might respond if you were the 'one' against the 'many'?

Like I said a couple of times, I don't think my responses to him were over the top in isolation, but in the context (rulings, not rules of the thread they were piling on, and therefore wrong, which is why I apologized. I was focused on my response, on myself, when I posted; when I then exercised some empathy and looked at it from his viewpoint I realized I had gone too far.

That's all I'm saying really, flip your perspective back and forth, look at your posts and others from different viewpoints, then decide what to do.

If Buckley was twittering, I'd be more generous.

As it is, I hold him to wording.

Saying the -purpose- of an open mind is to shut it, that strikes me as abhorrent.

He could have used the word obligation, or responsibility, or 'a properly functioning open mind must also...'

But he essentially tilted it toward a fundamental distrust and misunderstanding of what an open mind means.

So, I posted my counter quotes from hippies like Einstein.

@Apparition 13, fair enough sir but understand he's still on my IL regardless.

The book arrived today. Will dig into and post a review. Initial impression that it looks solid. Has a lot of detail but looks straightforward enough. If you like GURPS, Hero, Rolemaster, Harnmaster, Runequest, etc. You will likely like this set of rules. It is formatted similar to SPI's Dragonquest and Universe with wargame style numbering of topics. Makes it easy to look up references.

Yes it has Giants on page 211, but it is recommend as an option. Anyway Brian makes it clear that a referee needs to have a writeup summarizing what option are in use. His personal campaign likely doesn't have giants.

Sorry couldn't resist.

Quote from: estar;775829The book arrived today. Will dig into and post a review. Initial impression that it looks solid. Has a lot of detail but looks straightforward enough. If you like GURPS, Hero, Rolemaster, Harnmaster, Runequest, etc. You will likely like this set of rules. It is formatted similar to SPI's Dragonquest and Universe with wargame style numbering of topics. Makes it easy to look up references.

I got a copy as well. I agree it looks solid. Will probably do a review in the next couple of weeks.

Will your reviews save his precious children's lives???

You better think of the children when you monsters review his masterwork!

This was his second RPG, right? After his success with FATAL? No seriously, I always wondered if Gleichman was the author. He seems like THAT dude.

But hey, if his game has cool bits, that's great news. I've always said that I am happy to separate the Creator from the Creation.

Actually, I believe "Age of Heroes" is his only work, and it's currently at revision 5, according to his website.