Quote from: The Ent;773924I Get what you're saying.
(The saying I was quoting isn't just about Games mind, "if you want to join the game you got to stand the pain", sure, literally, but you know. That covers lots of stuff. Like internet brawls.)

He was attacked sure but. He has history here. Jeff, Rince and others - well I can't speak for them, but as far as I can see they've had enough interactions with him that they're not giving him the benefit of the doubt any more. I Don't feel that they can be fairly Criticized for that really. I've seen enough of the posts of all these three posters that I have to agree with Rince & Jeff - sure they can be harsh bastards, but Gleichmann frequently comes across pretty trollish.

Other posters with no such history re: Gleichmann have no excuse to go dogpile him though. As I said, I find dogpiling to be distasteful.

Once again, I have to return to my saying.

If Gleichmann can't handle a beating, then he shouldn't go about starting fights.

It's really that simple.

He's a grown man, with grown children even.

If he wants an emotionally safe place to rant, there's TBP.

And, secluded? He has a Family, apparently.

Even people that is emotionally secluded can still manage to get families, but perhaps secluded was the wrong words:
"Caught up in his own ways of thinking" may be more proper.

As for Jeff ... I guess he's ok as long as he only talks about games.
In other cases, he clearly has a history too.

Quote from: Catelf;773958Even people that is emotionally secluded can still manage to get families, but perhaps secluded was the wrong words:
"Caught up in his own ways of thinking" may be more proper.

As for Jeff ... I guess he's ok as long as he only talks about games.
In other cases, he clearly has a history too.

I absolutely see your POV.

Quote from: estar;773933The other thing I got was trying to argue with the guy without his rules in front of me is not going to work. So I ordered them from lulu.

Which I guess must of have pissed him off because he tore down his lulu store.

And god help me as I actually got the point of a post of his this time.

Anyway that my opinion on the matter.

Did he tear it down before or after he announced that he ragequit?
If after, it is possible that he just connected your ordering it with the whole thread that he at the time just wanted to get away from.

Quote from: Will;773948He accused everyone who disagreed with him of wanting his son to die or be tortured horribly because we all hate military and/or were looking for an excuse to vilify him.

My dad was in the Air Force, my cousin served two tours in Afghanistan, my brother was in the Army. I have great respect for everyone who serves.

His _completely out of left field_ slam related to the Armed Services was fucking offensive.

So when he tarred everyone with a broad brush, we immediately went to the attack and... oh wait, no, we lauded his son and mostly brushed it off.

This was his exact words at first:

QuoteTwo, twin boys.

Both went on to military service with one currently deployed in the Persian Gulf. I now await the wishes that he's killed while in harm's way, for that's just about how you bastards think.

I agree that it was a bit too much, but too many chose to escalate it ...

(WTH am I doing this for, the reasonable will thankfully keep being reasonable, but those that thinks they have far more points than they do will keep holing on to their points and think all of them were right because they did have some points that were right...)

Do you mean escalate it to that point, or after?

Because unless I missed it, nobody said anything bad about his son serving after that post.

Quote from: Catelf;773950I re-read enough when it was going on.

And "head up your ass"?
You try to prove me wrong, by proving me right.
You obviously want a reaction from me, that you can keep perpetrating.
This reply is my response.

So, your conclusions come without looking at what actually happened. Just wanted to confirm that. Yes, your head is up your ass.

Quote from: Catelf;773958Even people that is emotionally secluded can still manage to get families, but perhaps secluded was the wrong words:
"Caught up in his own ways of thinking" may be more proper.

As for Jeff ... I guess he's ok as long as he only talks about games.
In other cases, he clearly has a history too.

Yup, I'm clearly emotionally damaged.

Quote from: Will;773976Do you mean escalate it to that point, or after?

Because unless I missed it, nobody said anything bad about his son serving after that post.

I have reread it now.
It is obviously "escalate to that point", so I was technically wrong there.
After that it seems to only have been Novastar that went on and pointed out how G's comment looked like .... again, and G took it the worst way possible.
Essentially, I may have drawn some incorrect conclusions and assumptions, and I have to face it.

However, I am not alone in having drawn incorrect conclusions, and because of that thread being a mess in general, I prefer to not detail the rights and wrongs this time.
I only wonder if the other ones that made mistakes also will face those, or if they will not.
(Those I define "reasonable ones" already have, or wasn't even wrong to begin with. There is a risk someone or a very few will claim they weren't wrong at all, despite them actually being wrong, but those ought to be obvious by now.)

Quote from: Catelf;773971Did he tear it down before or after he announced that he ragequit?
If after, it is possible that he just connected your ordering it with the whole thread that he at the time just wanted to get away from.

It was a couple of days afterwards. Curious I checked it, I guess 4 days or so afterwards  and now it not there.

I told him I ordered it before the stuff with his son went down. I think he did this before prior to 2010 when he had his rules in a doc file for people to download.

It would not be the first time Gleichman cut and run from an argument, or ignored data that contradicts his narrative.

Are there some hurt feelings in this thread?

Shut the fuck up and roll the dice! The game must go on.

So those interested my copy of Gliechman rules just shipped. Should have them by next week.

Quote from: The Ent;773924If Gleichmann can't handle a beating, then he shouldn't go about starting fights.

It's really that simple.

There are many who need to learn that lesson.

Quote from: estar;773933The other thing I got was trying to argue with the guy without his rules in front of me is not going to work. So I ordered them from lulu.

Which I guess must of have pissed him off because he tore down his lulu store.

:rotfl:

Quote from: Novastar;773707Would that Gleichman take your advice, this whole debacle would have been avoided.

He's not the only one that could have used some lube.

QuoteHe has stated (repeatedly) that anyone who plays a certain way, is lacking in intelligence and a lesser human being. I merely pointed out that the brush he was painting with, hits a lot of people, including his own son apparently.

Can you not see how telling someone they are a terrible parent and hate their kids might draw a bit of a negative reaction? How it might not help your argument at all? How about the only thing it will do is inflame things?

QuoteCause apparently Gleichman can call me and other posters cumstains, but God forbid I point out his statements could be offensive to his own children, as well.

If he calls you a cumstain, call him one back. Don't bring family into it.

Quote from: Nexus;773750Did anyone actually say anything about his family aside from gliechman himself?

Implying you are a terrible parent is saying something about your family.

Look - ah, fuck it. One last time, this time with overkill. The numbers are post numbers, I've left the names off since I can't multiquote a closed thread and it was too much work. I've also left most of Gleichman's responses out. Yes, they had snark and PAs aplenty. I'm bolding what I think are the over the line attacks using family. I think the unbolded ones were probably okay in isolation, but in volume like here they are a problem as well.

Gleichman posts, there's discussion, things are going okay,

Then comes the "talking behind his back in a thread he can see". If you really want to belittle someone, take to PMs where they can't see them and it's actually behind their back. Doing it in public like this is like insulting someone sitting at your junior high lunch table while pretending they don't exist.

I also decided to underline all these Gleichman insulting asides between posters that weren't written to Gleichman once I saw how many of them there are.

QuotePost 22: Chuckle Out Loud at Gleichman still existing and people still talking to him.

Aaaaand of course it had to be Zak. After all the crap from the last few weeks, I am so disappoint. What's the point of posting this in the first place? Total thread crap, and the thread is sure to go pear shaped now.

Quote23: At least no one is quoting him so at least I never knew until his name was mentioned.
25: My thoughts exactly. (+1 for p22)
30: It seems that the 4e burning was a sacrifice necessary to bring back gleichmann. Welcome to your first rodeo (response to p29.
31: Thanks.  I guess? So what's a gleichmann?
32: You are better off not knowing. He takes all the fun out of gaming kind of like the Grinch and Christmas.

34 and 35, Gleichman responds to the topic, 36 he responds to 32.  38 he responds to 29. Both 36 and 38 are PA-ish, but in context they come after the above snark. 40, GA on gamers who like things to go their own way.

Quote41: That is a highly twisted and blinkered way of considering the issue.  You are taking every approach that isn't yours and ascribing it to scurrilous motives. This makes you look foolish.

The thread has now become heated, and personal. Gleichman responds in kind to many of the following posts.

Quote45: Ah, I begin to see from whence your reputation comes.

49: No no, the system didn't fail the players, the players FAILED THE SYSTEM.

51: A gentlemen that still hasn't internalized, "Different strokes, for different folks".

54: I have very little patience for the juvenile bullshit of 'badwrongfun.' The world is full of intolerant small-minded crap, and while I know it's a pipe dream, it'd be fucking fantastic not encountering it in something as unimportant and meant for fun as RPGs.

58: Now, I think your point of view on this paints you as someone whose ass is so tight you couldn't pull a needle out of it with a 2-ton tractor,

This is actually the first "you're a bad parent" post.

Quote63: You really posted a thread on an RPG site to call out your son for not following the rules you wrote to the letter. I just want to make sure I understand this correctly.

Gleichman responded with this:

Quote65: No.I posted a really good example of actual play when a Ruling not Rules harmed a game. Who was involved was unimportant.

Safe for the moment, the thread doesn't blow up.

Quote66: I see you are unable to actually provide any support for your point of view and instead you resort to unfounded name calling. We are all most impressed. That's sarcasm. In case you are having trouble following along.

67: Know what? We're talking about a goddamned game here, not making the trains run unerringly on time. You're right -- if folks are having fun, they don't care what you think. Nor should they. This clinical and rather myopic view of how to play really is just an excuse to be critical of other styles. You're also right in that no one's ever been convinced by an online discussion. This is another example.

68: Some people are tempermentally unsuited to be a GM. Anyone who thinks a GM could or should be replaced by a computer (which of course will always follow the RAW) is unsuited to the role of a GM. From your comments you appear to be one of those people.

71: It's interesting. A few pages ago I debated pointing out that G's views of gaming smacked a lot of real world conservative douchebaggery. But I figured it would be a bit silly to draw large inferences out of how people like their gaming. Looks like my instincts were right, though. What an officious jackass.

75: Regression towards the mean in action (implication that the son who made the initial ruling is not a terrible human being like his father).

79: What are you like 10 years old emotionally?

82: Oh no worries, I perfectly think your way is shit, nothing "postmodern" about it.

83: Man, I was so much happier when nobody quoted Gleichman.

112: Aren't you just the most precious little boy. Why, look, I have a .sig just for you! But leaving that aside ... damn, you're just so amusing it's tough not to collect your quips.

149: So, you're basically just a pretentious douchebag. I figured this was the case due to all the posts in this thread, but right here we see a definitive affirmation of that fact. Sorry if you're unable to enjoy playing games; you have said numerous times that ALL rpg rules are seriously flawed, so...yeah, sucks to be you.

150: You appear to have misspelled the word "better".

Fixed your type is fun to do, but it's still passive-aggro bs.

Quote153: OHT, is the creation of this thread not the definition of trolling?

155: I warned you all upthread. Gleichman is very special.

159: I should have paid more attention to Gleichmann's sig (William F. Buckley quote). Pretty well summed up.

162: Buckley was pretentious, but at least he spoke well, was entertainingly pretentious, and was able to present a logical train of thought. Sadly Gleichmann seems unable to do any of the three. He is like the ranters who come out on many campuses each fall along with the rest of the autumnal nuts.

163: Brian is the mopey middle-schooler who makes lists of 'enemies' consisting of people who don't even know who he is, and believes he's ostracized by others because he's so much better and brighter than everyone else and lacks the self-reflection to realise it's just because he's a fucking shitwit.

I missed it, this is the first Novastar reference to Gleichman being a terrible parent.

Quote173: For the love of God, I hope you did not say this to your son. I don't care if he's 5 or 35, if you said this or something similar, you are a fucking awful person.

Fortunately it was buried in a long post, so everyone else missed it too.

Quote176: Personally I'm amazed anybody takes Gleichman seriously but hey different strokes and all that jazz.

178: First, I had forgotten what G was like on TBP, and was willing to give someone here the benefit of the doubt in a more open environment. Then, when I figured out what a pompous self-loving dilhole he was, I was lured by the freedom to point that out. But at this point we're just streaming into the event horizon of his ego, so I'll try to do the sane thing and stop contributing.

181: Isn't this emotional abuse of a child by gleichman (referring to 173)?

183: What, gleichman bred?[/B]

What, someone's stupid enough to have kids with him?

Gleichman in response to 183:

Quote185: Two, twin boys. Both went on to military service with one currently deployed in the Persian Gulf.

Bear in mind at this point there have been by my count (which likely missed some) 34 posts either directly attacking Gleichman or, more commonly, insulting him while talking past him. Is it really a surprise he might say something like this given all the rest of the PAs directed at him?

QuoteI now await the wishes that he's killed while in harm's way, for that's just about how you bastards think.

Fuse lit...

Quote186: Gleichman: You are a small-minded twat.

Followed by thanking his son for his service. Interesting juxtaposition, that.

Quote187: "Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in."
 ― Isaac Asimov

 "The measure of intelligence is the ability to change."
 ― Albert Einstein

 "Despite my firm convictions, I have been always a man who tries to face facts, and to accept the reality of life as new experience and new knowledge unfolds it. I have always kept an open mind, which is necessary to the flexibility that must go hand in hand with every form of intelligent search for truth."
 ― Malcolm X

Good quotes and all, but the implication that the poster thinks Gleichman is an idiot comes through.

Quote188: God no (in reference to "wishes he's killed"). Congratulations on the family. (Then this). And apparently at least one's not as crazy as you so there's hope.

Since we missed it the first time, Novastar decides to double down and say it again. Thanks Novastar.*

Quote189: You just inferred he's stupid and a flawed person, because he made a different call than you in an RPG game.

and BOOM! Gleichman in response to Novastar's post 189. This time he saw the implication that first came in 173:

Quote190: You. FUCK OFF.

 The very idea that one of sons could be killed defending your sorry ass right to defame people online and throw unrelated words into a father's mouth to make an attack that had to be Satan's own creation REPULSES ME. And YOU make me seriously regret supporting them in their decision to undertake that risk.

 But Gratz you fucking idiot, after I don't know how many years a couple of you bastards have finally actually made me angry. You've proven nothing is too far, nothing is off limits. You would have thought I would have known that, but fool am I. I believe there was something worthwhile left in mankind.

 But you and jeff37923 have proved me oh so wrong.

 Gratz again.

 One Horse Town, please ban my account. I wish it as a marker to what just occurred. I will have nothing further to do with a site that accepts this sort of behavior from their posters. There is only so much shit one can wade through, no matter the cause.

Blood is in the water, sharks are starting to frenzy.

Quote191: Poor kid.

192: EDIT: I never said jack about your other son's service, or my own, because they aren't germane to the issue. I was commenting on your questionable behavior to the other one. And they are YOUR words. Maybe, just maybe, if you are shown that the open disdain that you treat a great deal of other people, is equally applicable to your own boys, you might take and show some restraint and courtesy in the future.

 Note: "I" have never said your children are stupid or lesser people. You did. Or more accurately, you stated that people that engage in the same activities as them, are. I merely pointed out you are painting with an over-large brush, one that also includes your children. Maybe you should give some thoughts on your comments, rather than your anger with me.

Here's a fun idea; why don't you go out to a mall, and walk up to everyone you see who you think might be a bad parent, and then very reasonably show them why logically they are bad parents. See how it goes. Or in not so snarky words, you might think you're being reasonable here, but people aren't reasonable where their kids and their relationships with their kids are concerned. Appealing to reason is futile. If you do it anyway you're being an idiot. I presume you aren't an idiot, so learn this lesson.

Quote193: Hey, Gleichman, if you don't want to imply that you think your son is an idiot, maybe you shouldn't imply that you think your son is an idiot. And fuck you for having the stones to try hiding behind the flag when you're called out on your bullshit.

Uncritically accepting Novastar's spin.

Quote194: This might get entertaining finally. Don't dissapoint the people that don't have you on ignore already, try hard ok? Just for me.

The audience egging the sharks on.

Quote197: Because really, fuck you gleichman for being such a pseudointellectual pussy that you have to use your own son's honorable military service as a shield to protect your hurt feelings over a gaming discussion.

Regarding  "hiding behind the flag". Gleichman loses it over this: "You just inferred he's stupid and a flawed person, because he made a different call than you in an RPG game." This: "The very idea that one of sons could be killed defending your sorry ass right to defame people online and throw unrelated words into a father's mouth to make an attack that had to be Satan's own creation REPULSES ME." is directed squarely at the implication that he is calling his own son's stupid. It doesn't have anything to do with hurt feelings over a gaming discussion, it has to do with an attack on his relationship with his sons. And it isn't hiding behind the flag, it's saying that Novastar is so repulsive they don't deserve constitutional protections. It's a PA, not hiding. Hiding behind the flag would be claiming that an attack on him is unfair because he is a veteran, or because his sons are. That doesn't happen here. Saying "you don't deserve the privilege of being defended by my son" isn't the same as claiming a privilege because his son is a vet. The reason I've bolded these is because they again play into the family dynamic.

Quote198 (Me): Sorry, by this: It's care that you have no concept why you're failure to care matters, did you mean this: It's cLEare that you have no concept why you're YOUR failure to care matters? (Because pointing out spelling/auto-correct errors is a way to imply people are stupid.)

Apparently I did (as is this).

If I'd been paying more attention to how much shit he had been dealing with, I wouldn't have posted this. In isolation it's pretty aggressive give and take, in the context of the thread it's piling on.

Quote200: That was, indeed, seriously disgusting (+1 for 193 re. hiding behind the flag).

201: I agree.

One Horse Town expresses disappointment at the thread.

Quote205: Wait, how the fuck is making fun of someone marching out their son's military service to protect them from someone disagreeing with them about elf-games hitting above their weight. Gleichman acts like a child. Has acted like a child every single time I've seen him. Consistently insults anyone who doesn't match his playstyle (and his playstyle is so hilariously extreme that that is pretty much everyone), and acts like he's persecuted and surrounded by idiots when no one agrees with him. (Are you beginning to see why he might feel persecuted?)

207: Oh, come on, dude quoted back exactly what Gliechman said.

 How about the part where Gliechman claimed that the posters would wish his son dead now that they found out he was in the military. Was that part out of line?

No, no, only the part where someone pointed out the exact thing that Gliechman said. That is totally off base, yep.[/U]

One Horse Town closes the thread.

*********

That took a while.

Final analysis:

1. Attacking people based on their family relationships, including implying or saying they are bad parents, will get your ass kicked in public. It's OTT, it's stupid, it makes you look like a bully, and it nukes threads. Don't do it.

2. I knew there were a lot of PAs in the thread, I didn't realize how many of them involved posters discussing what an awful person Gleichman was amongst themselves. If you're going to be an asshole and insult someone don't be a chickenshit, insult them directly; address it to them. If you want to talk behind their back, take it to PM so you can actually talk behind their back.

I really want to emphasize this point. Until I pulled all these quotes, I didn't know how much this was happening. Keep an eye out. I think these kinds of posts have a pretty corrosive effect on the site.

3. If someone annoys you that much, IL them, and stay out of their threads, even if the threads look interesting. And if you should wander into their range, don't engage, and don't talk about them out in the open.

4. No-one can admit to being in the wrong, since they think it means they are an intrinsically horrible person rather than someone who made a mistake or got carried away. Ironically Gleichman got this right; he thought his son made a GMing mistake, but didn't think that meant he was a horrible person.

5. Try and be aware of what is happening in the thread beyond just your participation. This was where my mistake lay, I had tunnel vision focused on my exchange with Brian and missed how many posts there were that were PAs. Someone may be acting dickish in part because they are getting it from all sides. Don't pile on when you see that.

6. Hopefully some of the neutrals took something useful away from this.

7. Slather that lube over your posts and maybe the site will have less friction.

 
*Yes, this is a PA.

I can admit to being wrong.

I should have left the thread earlier when it was clear what Gleichman was about. As I said in the thread, I was seduced by being in an environment that was less jackbooted than previous forums I've been on.

I agree that most of the 20s posts were unwarranted sniping. If you don't ever listen to Gliechman... don't post in a thread he started?

As for my quotes, did you notice Gleichman's sig?

Quote"The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you've simply abdicated the responsibility to think." - William F. Buckley.

That's horrific. And it's also very appropriate to the tone and style of Gleichman's arguments, which is what my shift in posting in the thread was about -- realizing that he's not actually interested in a discussion, that he is absolutely intolerant of contrasting views, however he might pay lip service to story games.

My quotes were a response to that, on the subject of being open-minded, and a sharp, _intellectual_, reply to the tone and nature of his arguments.

I don't think it's in the same sphere as 'har har you suck.'

Excuse me that he ruined his own thread as usual. I figured if he insisted then at least be entertaining, not be a big dick about it. As I said I WAS having a productive conservation in that thread that may have been some help to Gleichman over the actual reason for the thread.

Basically I was warning people about him and how that thread would end so get off your high horse before you get bucked off.

Marleycat, your entire involvement in that thread was to take potshots at Gleichman and throw feces at him constantly.

You had absolutely nothing productive to say in the thread.

Neither did Zak.

Gleichman took the entire can of gasoline and upended it on his head, but let's be honest, there were plenty of people eagerly tossing matches at him.