Quote from: BedrockBrendan;773109I am not saying he is right, I even disagreed with him on the thread. But I gain a lot more as a poster hearing his points and weighing them, than by dismissing them because of how they are presented. I actually wish more folks took him seriously because at times we can become an echo-chamber around certain ideas and it is good have other perspectives like that (and I do realize he presents them in an absolutist way that can be infuriating----but then we do that with a lot of our ideas too, even if not to that degree).

Yeah. I genuinely like Gleichman's posts and reading his point of view, even if I disagree with much of it. I don't consider him any more absolutist than anyone else here, he's just hostile in a different way than other posters; more blunt, less nasty.

We'd be a poorer place without his occasional visits.

Obviously, I am what is wrong with theRPGSite.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;773109It became very clear to me some time ago Gleichman takes these exchanges more seriously than many think, and I agree with OHT that there seems to be an anything goes mentality when it comes to responding to Gleichman and guys like Koltar. Personally I find that sort of singling out for special treatment (even if folks feel justified by the poster's behavior) disheartening. Especially when, if you look past the insults and bluster, Gleichman is making actual arguments that a lot of folks failed to address.

If you want to be a Preacher of Truth, Disdainful, you're either prepared to take the heat or don't walk into the flames.

QuoteI am not saying he is right, I even disagreed with him on the thread. But I gain a lot more as a poster hearing his points and weighing them, than by dismissing them because of how they are presented. I actually wish more folks took him seriously because at times we can become an echo-chamber around certain ideas and it is good have other perspectives like that (and I do realize he presents them in an absolutist way that can be infuriating----but then we do that with a lot of our ideas too, even if not to that degree).

Actually, you will be surprised, I did like some of his texts (most notably, the metagame one). However, he is an absolutely asinine poster, because recently his main argument is, when engaged intellectually, "Well, in my game...", which is frankly dishonest and pointless to argue on an intellectual basis - look how Estar engaged him over last couple of arguments (apologies to Estar for calling him into a thread he probably doesn't want to be in). Him quitting RPGsite is quite frankly good also for him, because he should lock himself away from the "plebs" in his ivory tower, and write there, since he obviously can't communicate with people, discussing his ideas without him actually present is probably much more beneficial to all.

Quote from: jeff37923;773517Obviously, I am what is wrong with theRPGSite.

Jeff, this is a tangent here, but - you need to let things go, man. You are a man who literally has to have a grudge against someone. You find a target, and engage them endlessly until they quit the forums. I like to think you're not a troll, just sometimes an horrible bastard.

Quote from: CRKrueger;773401Bingo.  It seems like instead of enjoying the forum where you can be free of the "me too", dog piling, Zebrashow, we have way too many people lately deciding it's more fun to do it here.

The level of site-disrupting shitposting these days is orders of magnitude higher then what got, say, JDCorley banned, but since they're not trolling Pundit directly, it just keeps snowballing.

Or maybe people should also leave some of their "strong personality" at the door, both ways? And yes, that is ironic coming from me, I know.

The problem is less that the site is ZOMG AWFULPURPLE 2.0 SOON, but that when people are challenged - both right and wrong - rather than try to engage, they quickly grow furious that their Internet ego is challenged. Now, don't get me wrong - I am as guilty of this as any other man or woman here. But if we want more civil discussions, we need less Internet Tough Hunter Thompsons, and more people who want to engage in a genuine discussion, rather than think anyone criticising them is a troll seeking to undermine their authority/respect/position whatever.

Quote from: Rincewind1;773524The problem is less that the site is ZOMG AWFULPURPLE 2.0 SOON, but that when people are challenged - both right and wrong - rather than try to engage, they quickly grow furious that their Internet ego is challenged. Now, don't get me wrong - I am as guilty of this as any other man or woman here. But if we want more civil discussions, we need less Internet Tough Hunter Thompsons, and more people who want to engage in a genuine discussion, rather than think anyone criticising them is a troll seeking to undermine their authority/respect/position whatever.

Actually I couldn't care less about my or anyone else's 'Internet ego", and anyone who thinks there's status to be had here is a misguided fool, as I said, it's Pundit and everybody else.  

It's the deliberately and purposely misquoting what someone is saying 6 posts in a row because they're wearing the wrong team jersey that I think we could do with a lot less of.  That's got fuck all to do with strength of personality, it's just about intellectual honesty or the total lack thereof.

Quote from: CRKrueger;773544Actually I couldn't care less about my or anyone else's 'Internet ego", and anyone who thinks there's status to be had here is a misguided fool, as I said, it's Pundit and everybody else.  

It's the deliberately and purposely misquoting what someone is saying 6 posts in a row because they're wearing the wrong team jersey that I think we could do with a lot less of.  That's got fuck all to do with strength of personality, it's just about intellectual honesty or the total lack thereof.

The latter I agree with - as to the first paragraph, I speak of what I consider a root of the problem that may cause the latter.

Quote from: apparition13But secondly, twisting it into an attack on his own son is textbook taking something out of context and using it to attack someone.

No, it's taking one in context comment, and applying it to previous statements. Gleichman's own "consistent logic". Gleichman's also the first to tell you words have meaning, and very specific meaning. It's the foundation of his "Rules > Rulings" philosophy of OneTrueWayism.

I cannot help that pointing out his logic of being a dick to us, means he's also being a dick to his son. It's up to Brian to stop being a dick.

If Gleichman really wants people to stop treating him like a horrible human being?
Then he should stop acting like a horrible human being. End of line.

Quote from: RPGPundit;773189This site depends on collective non-forcible regulation of behaviours, rather than moderation of behaviors (outside of those behaviours that are egregiously disruptive to the site).

From what I've seen, the right response to the things that happened on that thread is this very thread.

RPGPundit

If people start exercising a little more restraint, perhaps pause a second to ask if that's really what they want to say, or how they want to say it, I'd say it has served it's purpose re. the site.

Quote from: Rincewind1;773069I'd rather ask a question if we should endeavour to make the forum emotionally safe, stop.

If so, I wonder how. Perhaps an open letter'd be a way to start.

It doesn't need to be emotionally safe. The attraction is being able to say your piece without second guessing every damned word because you're going to run afoul of moderation. To quote Heinlein:

Quote from: the notebooks of Lazarus LongMoving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untraveled, the naive, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best.

We just need a little more lube.

Quote from: jeff37923;773087No, more like ambivalent what-the-fuck? than any kind of righteous indignation. I was honestly wondering what your own motivation was for doing this.

To quote Faith, "because it's wrong". I saw behavior I didn't like, including on my part, so I said something. Is that so far-fetched?

Quote from: One Horse Town;773103*snip* stuff I agree with

I agree with all of this. Low moderation means almost all of the site moderation needs to be self-moderation. In my case, I find hitting "preview post" helps me cut out some of the BS.  

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;773109No. This isn't that kind of forum. This is a forum that values free speech. And that is an important value for us to uphold. At the same time that doesn't mean all speech on the site is commendable or that folks should be jerks just because. That is the neccessary downside, not the upside, of our policies.

It became very clear to me some time ago Gleichman takes these exchanges more seriously than many think, and I agree with OHT that there seems to be an anything goes mentality when it comes to responding to Gleichman and guys like Koltar. Personally I find that sort of singling out for special treatment (even if folks feel justified by the poster's behavior) disheartening. Especially when, if you look past the insults and bluster, Gleichman is making actual arguments that a lot of folks failed to address.

I am not saying he is right, I even disagreed with him on the thread. But I gain a lot more as a poster hearing his points and weighing them, than by dismissing them because of how they are presented. I actually wish more folks took him seriously because at times we can become an echo-chamber around certain ideas and it is good have other perspectives like that (and I do realize he presents them in an absolutist way that can be infuriating----but then we do that with a lot of our ideas too, even if not to that degree).

Agreed here as well. The more liberty you have, the more responsibility you have to use it responsibly. And while I don't much agree with Gleichman, his viewpoint is one that isn't common, and is therefore useful since it stretches my intellectual boundaries.

Quote from: Catelf;773186My view has it that he mentioned it because he's proud of his sons, and he mentioned it as a reply to the "you bred?" comment.
Of course I may remember it incorrectly.

Nope, perfectly correct.

QuoteSo, the guy speaks in absolutes and some emotional exaggerations, and you mean that makes him a valid target?
Sure, it is obvious that he hadn't thought through the logical conclusions of his absolutes in combination that his example really was one of his sons.
It seems to me that he saw the "His son", "Son as GM", and "Criticizing GMs Harshly" lines of thoughts as three different lines of thoughts, so when his view of The usual Suspects went at him saying he really was criticizing his son .... he went on the "here it comes, they are attacking me through my son" instead of thinking through what he had said.
But then, "The usual suspects" did seem more interested in attacking him than trying to get him to understand what he had said.

On the other hand, if I give him what may seem as the benefit of doubt, then that courtesy should be extended to "The Usual Suspects" too.

I really don't think there was enough ambiguity on the part of the usual suspects to justify extending them the benefit of doubt in this case. Earlier in the thread, maybe. But not later.

Quote from: Koltar;773399Is there something specific you are referring to with that comment?

 I go onto any forum to talk about role playing games  - not to get insulted.

- Ed C.

He just meant you're someone else who gets targeted whenever they show up. I don't think I've ever seen this site when there wasn't at least one person who wasn't considered fair game by some subset of the posting population.

Quote from: CRKrueger;773403We don't need an emotional safe zone, one where ideas could be expressed without every line of every post going through some Bizarro propaganda version of "Sophistry Telephone" would be nice.

I'd just like to say the bolded bit is a right clever turn of phrase.

Quote from: jeff37923;773517Obviously, I am what is wrong with theRPGSite.

There's that scene in Terminator where Arnie is responding to the, I think motel manager, and we see a list of potential responses, the last of which is "fuck you asshole". He jumps straight to the bottom of the list; I'm suggesting we use the other responses more often.

Quote from: Novastar;773658No, it's taking one in context comment,

and applying it to previous statements.

That's textbook using things out of context. Taking something that makes sense in one place, and applying it to something said somewhere else.

QuoteIf Gleichman really wants people to stop treating him like a horrible human being?
Then he should stop acting like a horrible human being. End of line.

I think you were over the line. Apparently you don't. Riddle me this though, can you think of anything you could do that would be over the line? Because what you write here could be used to justify a whole lot of horrible.

Quote from: Novastar;773658No, it's taking one in context comment, and applying it to previous statements. Gleichman's own "consistent logic". Gleichman's also the first to tell you words have meaning, and very specific meaning. It's the foundation of his "Rules > Rulings" philosophy of OneTrueWayism.

I cannot help that pointing out his logic of being a dick to us, means he's also being a dick to his son. It's up to Brian to stop being a dick.

If Gleichman really wants people to stop treating him like a horrible human being?
Then he should stop acting like a horrible human being. End of line.

See, we can help it. We don't have to bring families into it. We can look at ideas, and talk about gaming, instead of bringing in stuff that really has nothing to do with gaming. That falls under personal responsibility. We have the ability to exercise restraint, ignore the pointless stuff, and talk about what originally brought us together in this hobby.

There was a pretty good discussion going that I'm afraid is getting blocked out by this sort of thinking. To say we "cannot help ourselves" is a sad state, indeed. I think we can, and I think many of us can contribute really positive discussion to the site.

Ultimately, it's up to each of us to decide how we want to contribute to this site. But I do think we can all do better--myself included, certainly!

It was a pretty good discussion so long as people ignored half of what Gleichman said, including a persistent griping about people being stupid antagonistic idiots who were constantly trying to pull one over on the GM.

It would have been awesome if, when Novastar pointed out the logical consequence of his comments, Gleichman had gone 'huh, you know, you're right. I'll yoke back on the unnecessary condemnation' and focused on a more positive focus.

Quote from: Zachary The First;773694We don't have to bring families into it.

And...I never said a damn thing about either of his boys.

I SAID he was an awful person, if he ACTUALLY said those things to them, like he does to us. That logically following his own statements, he's damning at least the one child, at the same time he's damning us.

His comments are just a little bit subtler than saying, "You're not as stupid as you look!" to his own children, if he does it knowingly.

Sorry, but fuck that shit.

...

...I also asked like three questions before the comment (in two different posts), which Gleichman never addressed. And, of course, it's not like he's ever run from an argument before...especially when it fucks with the conclusions he's arrived at, before even asking.

tl;dr version

Quintesson: "Silence! Or else you will be held in contempt of court!"
Hot Rod: "I have nothing BUT contempt for this court..."

Quote from: apparition13;773692We just need a little more lube.

Would that Gleichman take your advice, this whole debacle would have been avoided.

QuoteThat's textbook using things out of context. Taking something that makes sense in one place, and applying it to something said somewhere else.

No, it is not.
If I used the one line to claim he was a Nazi, or his son is a pigfucker, that would be taking it out of context.

He has stated (repeatedly) that anyone who plays a certain way, is lacking in intelligence and a lesser human being. I merely pointed out that the brush he was painting with, hits a lot of people, including his own son apparently.

QuoteI think you were over the line.

Cause apparently Gleichman can call me and other posters cumstains, but God forbid I point out his statements could be offensive to his own children, as well.

QuoteApparently you don't.

I think Gleichman could be interesting, if he could treat people in general with something approaching common human decency.
I have commented in the past that I think he could play a mean game of chess, or wargame of choice.

QuoteRiddle me this though, can you think of anything you could do that would be over the line? Because what you write here could be used to justify a whole lot of horrible.

Actually insult his kids? Make up shit? Track him down and smear him in bacon grease?

Seriously, how far should I go with this?

Gleichman's a fucking rude prick, who has an inflated value of his own intellect, and doesn't like being proved wrong. Congrats, he's 20% of the people that post on the Internet in the former, and 100% in the latter. I'm not fucking stalking the dude, I didn't go on his website to cherry pick out quotes to "trip him up"; I used what he posted in the thread, which I'm sorry, was pretty damned fucked up with to begin with.

This isn't a court. It's not an interrogation, or a demand, or a trial, or anything else. No one is getting banned, and no one here is about to become a martyr for freedom. It's pointing out that a fair amount of discussion on this board has devolved into people trolling or simply going around with the same posters over and over again.

I think we should hold conversation to a higher standard. Exercise a bit of restraint, stop justifying dogpiling, and actually look to the ideas being expressed, not easy points or derailing the discussion. I know some folks don't feel they had any fault in the thread. But I would say when some of us--who have been on this board for a long time, and are not exactly known as totalitarians or shrinking violets in any sense of the term--all have a genuine issue with the level and quality of discussion, it might at least give pause for a moment. If not, well, ok; we're all responsible for ourselves. I've said my piece, but I know we can all do better.

Really, if folks are engaged in a conversation (which several individuals in this thread have mentioned having their discussion with Gleichman derailed in that thread), and people pop in to snipe, I don't think that's doing any good. There's an ignore button for a reason, the same as there's the intellectual freedom to ignore a thread, or stay away from that which discourages actual discussion.

I'm sorry; I don't mean to sound preachy or talk down in any way. I'm just disappointed in the overall level of discussion here lately; looking at my own posting history, I've been as guilty as anyone. I've said my piece, and I hope to do better going forward.

Maybe you should give that missive to Gleichman, if and when he returns.

I'll behave, IF he can.

Quote from: Novastar;773736Maybe you should give that missive to Gleichman, if and when he returns.

I'll behave, IF he can.

I think it applies to us all equally, not just any one of us.

With that, I guess I've said what I wanted to say here. Back on to gaming stuff!

I have him on IL for a reason and never would have known the little that I do know except for other people quoting him here and there but I do apologize if I ever said a thing about about his family (I didn't). But I don't apologize for thinking he's a mean spirited asshole.