I suggest people reread the thread.

G mentioned his son in the first post, and said he screwed up. There was some reasonable chatter. Last post of first page, G starts in on value judgments about how 'this is what's wrong with the industry today.'

So move on or put him on ignore. Don't play the stupid hyenas and zebras game; this isn't RPGnet.

Quote from: Arminius;772750I strongly urge people if you don't care for how someone posts, put them on ignore and think twice about posting in threads started by them.

I didn't post in that thread, nor have I read it. It's Gleichman. What he says is neither informative nor entertaining. He's just a cocksmock.

All we're doing is rolling dice, eating snacks and telling tall stories. Sure, there's a bit more to it all than that, but that's what it comes down to and it's not something to get emotional about.

Unless of course you go diceless, that is just beyond the pale. It's almost as bad as not bringing snacks. Cunts.

I thought I'd give the thread a little time to shake out a bit before responding.

Quote from: The Butcher;772605My initial comment was a joke. I'm pretty sure almost everyone here is old enough to remember what one of those looks like.

Jokes depend on the audience. The problem in this case is Gleichman is under personal attack from multiple vectors, so he's going to read it uncharitably. In his situation I would have read it as "wait, you mean to tell me that stupid, moronic asshole found someone gullible or stupid enough to pair off with? That's just wrong, he doesn't deserve respect, let alone love".

QuoteGleichman felt the necessity to reply, sharing personal family information with everyone, and took the opportunity to level a particularly virulent accusation — that we would wish for the death of a human being just to spite him — at the board as a whole ("you bastards").

Sure, you challenged him, so re replied. The "virulent accusation" though wasn't a surprise to me at all given all the PAs he had already taken in the thread. If he's been attacked on just about every grounds he could have been, why should being attacked through family be a surprise? And note, he did get attacked through his family, though not in the way he suggested it might.

QuoteI was even considerate enough of his bitterness to allay his completely baseless fears of anyone wishing ill upon his family; congratulated him on said family; and, horror of horrors, ended it with what I considered at the time a good-natured ribbing (post #188).

Hey, I appreciated that. Kudos on seeing what had happened and trying to do something about it. Unfortunately the cat was already out of the bag.

Sacrosanct: he wasn't hiding behind his kids, he was expressing pride in them, but also what I would say was legitimate cynicism that, given the attacks he had already been subject to, someone would turn that against him as well. Though thankfully not in the manner he thought.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;772621I have to agree with the posters expressing dissapointment in that thread. I realize people have issues with gleichman, that he can be provocative, but i also think he didn't come out of that thread looking like the one to blame for it. I feel things have become more personal and hostile, and do believe we can do better. We have free speech here, that is part of the site's core principles. I do think people could be exercizing that a bit better than they have of late. I don't think folks involved realize how bad the thread reads. That was pretty much every poster on the thread, with a handful of exceptions, attacking the guy in a way that just comes off like bullying. It was the internet equivalent of holding someone down and kicking them while they are on the ground. Once it reaches that point, it doesn't matter if the person deserves it or not. There is smack talk, but then there is stuff like you had on this thread.

I for one wouldn't mind seeing more points of view explored rather than squashed down first thing.

Well put, there is a responsibility that goes along with the right to free speech.

Quote from: jeff37923;772627Likewise, a poster should not try to use his family members as shields when they feel attacked whether they are or not. Gleichman brought up his son's military service in a manner that shows he expected someone to take a potshot at that in an attempt to garner sympathy in a gaming discussion.

He'd gotten pot shots about everything else, why not expect it from this angle?

QuoteNo.

Disappointing, but not surprising. I was hoping at least one of you would apologize, but given getting called out is going to result in righteous indignation I wasn't really expecting anything.

QuoteIs nothing to be apologized for.

I think different. Getting caught up in mob behavior and going too far is both something to apologize for and something to learn from, so next time one can recognize the situation and respond better.

Quote from: Rincewind1;772629Was the kid thing necessary? Bloody hells, no. But he was pushing buttons all the time, so it's quite logical that eventually, things spin out of hand. He's not a lone voice of dissent being silenced, he's a man who's been tearing at so many throats, and yet is surprised when he throws a tantrum showing finally weakness that everyone jumps on that breach in the armour. This time, the breach was opened in such a way, he can finally do what he always wanted to - leave in a huff while feeling morally superior, with someone actually patting him on the way out.

My question is what do you do when things do spin out of hand? It may be perfectly predictable that people would attack a chink in the armor, but is it right to do so in this way, and if it isn't how do you deal with it afterwards? I'm not suggesting people kowtow and beg his forgiveness, I'm not even suggesting people need to be sincere. But it seems to me this is a situation where an apology, even if grudging, is called for.

Quote from: Will;772656The post didn't mention his son who was serving. Instead, it pointed out 'hey, wait, if you're bringing up stuff about your sons... don't you realize this logical conclusion of your posts? Think about it.'

Except that comment was at worst a PA directed at me, and it didn't bug me that much since I could see how much shit Gleichman was getting thrown at him. It wasn't a problem until Novastar applied a little spin and turned it into an attack, and several other people uncritically accepted that spin as the truth and used "you just said your kid is stupid (he didn't, he suggested I was stupid)" as a club to beat him with. It was like watching what passes for political punditry in this country, with an added helping of "and he's a crappy father".

It's over the line, even for this hive of scum and villainy. And I usually like the Mos Eisleyesque nature of this forum.

Quote from: Arminius;772776So move on or put him on ignore. Don't play the stupid hyenas and zebras game; this isn't RPGnet.

That's what I like, simple solutions. These two sentences can be the tl,dr for this thread.

Quote from: apparition13;772966Sacrosanct: he wasn't hiding behind his kids, he was expressing pride in them, but also what I would say was legitimate cynicism that, given the attacks he had already been subject to, someone would turn that against him as well. Though thankfully not in the manner he thought.

Yeah he did.  He pulled the, "If you say anything bad about me, then you want my kids to die."  Just a slight variation on the classic, "If you disagree, you must hate puppies." angle.

And the reason I took offense at it is because as a veteran myself, his statement implies that if I call him an asshole for being an asshole, then I become a dirtbag hypocrite by wishing ill on veterans.  It was a cowardly cop out to avoid taking accountability for his own actions but to shift the blame to people calling him out as being horrible people.

QuoteHe'd gotten pot shots about everything else, why not expect it from this angle?.

He got pots shots for things he himself has directly said/done.  No one took pot shots at him for things his family or friends or anyone else did.  If you can't see this fundamental difference, not sure what to tell you.

His _first post_ is 'my son messed up GMing a game, and here's why that sort of thing is a horrible thing people should avoid.'

I'm a father of twins. I'm sure at some point I'll post something stupid about them, and people will call me on it. I'll then hopefully take the hit and move on.

Quote from: Will;772970His _first post_ is 'my son messed up GMing a game, and here's why that sort of thing is a horrible thing people should avoid.'

I'm a father of twins. I'm sure at some point I'll post something stupid about them, and people will call me on it. I'll then hopefully take the hit and move on.

You bred?

Quote from: Zachary The First;772712This is a site about RPGs. We enjoy the ability here to discuss RPGs and gaming freely, but there's also such a thing as accountability and responsibility.

Let's face it--we definitely have some posters that are more concerned seemingly with trolling and single-note posts rather than creating actual content, writing reviews, or doing more than drive-bys in threads. It's disappointing, and more than a bit sad, when I think of some of the vibrancy of posting and unique characters that have left this board.

I'm not out to turn this into some free speech issue or anything else, but I think the site would be a better place if more of us focused on the love of gaming, gaming design, and trading opinions with a baseline of respect, even in times of the warmest disagreements. I've certainly not always been the best at that myself, but for me, I'm going to pledge very hard to make contributions that make this a better place, take accountability for what I post, encourage gaming, and help make cool stuff. I'm going to say right here and now I'm going to focus on reviews and my upcoming Gen Con coverage. I hope others find their own great way to provide content and contribute.

I think if we all spent more time on gaming, less on drama, and did just one thoughtful post, review, or actual play write-up a week, this forum would live up to the hopes and ideals many of us had for it.

This isn't the type of board to ban someone unless things go very, very far indeed, so all this is really is an appeal. Let's do awesome stuff, and leave dogpiles, one-notes, drive-bys, and the extremes of drama to other places.

Yes, it is sad, and yes, I agree with you. But at the same time - this isn't some poor lone misunderstood lamb that's walked into a hardcore trolling session. This is someone who has countless times said how much he spites this site. The assumption he wants a legitimate discussion is over by then. There are people who had been subjected to almost as bad pack hunt here, because they argued for "storygames are rpgs, you twats" (two_fish, soviet). And yet nobody was up in arms. Yes, line was crossed here. But it's a line he was working up a lot of people to cross for ages.

I do however agree, that we should focus on points, not posters. But that's a good thing in theory, but sort of bad in practice. For it to work you'd need to have full anonymity. Despite the droves of users, RPGsite isn't a very large forum, at least by forum standards - if grudges form on a bigger one such as TBP, why'd you not expect a much more hermetic society, where people spend more "time" with less amount of people, not form them?

Quote from: apparition13;772966My question is what do you do when things do spin out of hand? It may be perfectly predictable that people would attack a chink in the armor, but is it right to do so in this way, and if it isn't how do you deal with it afterwards? I'm not suggesting people kowtow and beg his forgiveness, I'm not even suggesting people need to be sincere. But it seems to me this is a situation where an apology, even if grudging, is called for.
.

I think an apology is good for crossing the line at hounding him, but at the same time - he should apologise as well, especially for the whole "YOU PROBABLY WISH MY KID DEAD, BASTARDS" line. He's been insulting people here left and right for ages.

How'd I handle it as well? Let me tell you something. I know I'm a right bastard, and I get on people's nerves here. I also know I can get into petty rivalries and go balls out stupid at times. But when that happens, I don't blame the entire world. I take a step back. Relax. Take time off. It's a bloody forum, not my workplace, I can afford to live without it for a month or two to calm down and/or for my interest to come back in it.

There's no excuse for dogpiling people, but there's also no excuse for waving your cock in everyone's face and expecting them to let you go, because you have a "strong personality" and we should "attack the argument, not the poster." Because that's how things work - when you have a history of arguing with someone, you lash out. That's where both sides should take a step back. And if you have a "strong personality", you may wish to learn a little tact.

All that said, I'd ultimately agree that yes, ignore and move on is the best thing to do. The problem is of course, when you have someone screaming for attention, it is kind of hard to ignore them.

I recommend everyone practice breeding! Often!

Quote from: Arminius;772750Incidentally, this is why I would like the site to have a +1 feature (note, not a downvote or -1, just +1)

Good idea, but it would be cooler if we had a "Hell yeah!" button and a "Fuck you!" button.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;772811Unless of course you go diceless, that is just beyond the pale. It's almost as bad as not bringing snacks. Cunts.

How much beer would I need to bring to offset the diceless penalty?

First of all, apparition13 and Rincewind, thanks for keeping a cool head and being reasonable. apparition13 in particular, I was pretty mad at your OP here, but that was a very reasonable response — even if I still disagree.

Quote from: apparition13;772966I thought I'd give the thread a little time to shake out a bit before responding.

I really only take exception with the idea that there's anything extraordinary with gleichman throwing a hissy fit and ragequitting the forum.

I am sorry he chose to take such deep-seated offense at what at the time I considered a harmless joke. But it immediately became apparent that he lends those discussions way more emotional weight than all other parts involved.

And of course, it begs the question of whether we should endeavor to make the forum emotionally safe for gleichman. Read that out loud a couple of times and hopefully you'll understand where I'm coming from.

Quote from: apparition13;772966That's what I like, simple solutions. These two sentences can be the tl,dr for this thread.

Sound advice for gleichman, too.

Quote from: Rincewind1;772971There are people who had been subjected to almost as bad pack hunt here, because they argued for "storygames are rpgs, you twats" (two_fish, soviet). And yet nobody was up in arms. Yes, line was crossed here. But it's a line he was working up a lot of people to cross for ages.

That's part of what I was hinting at.

Quote from: Rincewind1;772971I think an apology is good for crossing the line at hounding him, but at the same time - he should apologise as well, especially for the whole "YOU PROBABLY WISH MY KID DEAD, BASTARDS" line. He's been insulting people here left and right for ages.

That'd be a compromise I could live with, but I don't see it happening.

Quote from: Will;772972I recommend everyone practice breeding! Often!

See. That's the sort of answer I expected. Honest.

Quote from: Spinachcat;772989How much beer would I need to bring to offset the diceless penalty?

There is no amount possible. If the game is diceless, I won't be there. Diceless games always turn emo-thespy, and are incomplete. Diceless roleplaying games are like porn without the money shot - it's fun, but there's something missing.

Think of that the next time you toss a handful on the table.

Quote from: The Butcher;773014And of course, it begs the question of whether we should endeavor to make the forum emotionally safe for gleichman.

Of course we should!  I'll get right on that.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;773025Think of that the next time you toss a handful on the table.

And that's why I only use white dice.

Hey, I prefer my porn without a money shot.

I'd rather ask a question if we should endeavour to make the forum emotionally safe, stop.

If so, I wonder how. Perhaps an open letter'd be a way to start.

Given that I'm friended to Gleichman I should probably say something. I've been ambivalent since it did seem that he was inviting attack with the 'and you probably wish he was dead', but... I expect he thought he had to provide extra information on his family (probably against his better judgment) since it was his son being quoted in the OP, and he was under heavy attack at the time. I would add that I think Novastar's line of argument did enrage him into quitting, rather than this being some deliberate ploy on his part.  did reach his quota of muckslinging, but he was one of the cleverer posters around, and his moving on is a loss to the site and gaming in general.

On the board culture question, I don't believe therpgsite has ever been what you would call an emotional safe zone, but I do commend a number of the people in this thread for their efforts.