QuoteBut in roleplaying games, this doesn't follow. Designing a game is emphatically not the entry level of creativity. Also, I question whether designing a game is truly a creative path at all, rather than just the intermediary step onto becoming a salesman.

Maw, fiddling with rules and making your own games is a part of the hobby. To continue the analogizing, you're busting in on a guy working on a terrain for his model trains and telling him he's wasting his time because Bill down the street has a great set of tracks already laid down. Hell, are you really saying that the people responsible for the hundreds of free games out there are have no relation to the hobby? It may be a different level of creativity from the table, but pure history shows this activity is indeed an inextricable part of the RPG hobby.

Stop being such a dumbass.

Maybe this is too complex for you guys. Analogies are stupid, so let's use them again.

A model train guy that builds his own terrain is analgous to a GM building a campaign. I'd never bust on that guy. He's an artist and a craftsman.

But I would totally bust on:

A guy that designs a new terrain manufacturing product for model trains (simulated gravel, guaranteed to make your train more psychologically safe, guaranteed not to traumatize you with sharp edges!), and advocates that other people give up their train sets to try their hand at the simulated gravel manufacturing process.. He also wishes to sell you bags of gravel for a nominal fee.

I'm willing to concede that the second guy is doing harder work. He may even make a buck or two at it. Heck, it is creative (in a way) to be a gravel manufacturer. There are elements of craft and art here, sure. But this guy is a salesman. He's selling his little bags of gravel, and he's selling the idea of the gravel being helpful.

And he doesn't compare to the first guy- the real craftsman. The first guy is already engaged with the train hobby.

I n the same way, I feel that exhorting people to "design a game" as a way to creatively engage the hobby is just silly.

I'll just drop it at that unless you guys want to keep arguing. I don't care if you disagree or not. I'm mainly still just clarifying because I feel like you don't understand.

Quote from: JamesVMaw, fiddling with rules and making your own games is a part of the hobby. To continue the analogizing, you're busting in on a guy working on a terrain for his model trains and telling him he's wasting his time because Bill down the street has a great set of tracks already laid down. Hell, are you really saying that the people responsible for the hundreds of free games out there are have no relation to the hobby? It may be a different level of creativity from the table, but pure history shows this activity is indeed an inextricable part of the RPG hobby.

Stop being such a dumbass.

By the way, I wrote two of the games on that list you linked.

Quote from: Abyssal MawBy the way, I wrote two of the games on that list you linked.

Which ones?  I've got a ton of free RPGs (legally) on my HD--maybe I've played yours!

Quote from: Abyssal MawBy the way, I wrote two of the games on that list you linked.

And you really don't think you were engaging in a creative aspect of the hobby?

I'm sorry, but that's a headscratcher to me.

Quote from: Zachary The FirstWhich ones?  I've got a ton of free RPGs (legally) on my HD--maybe I've played yours!

I don't want to reveal my secret identity!




...




Oh, ok. Pumpkin Town and the Nutcracker Prince. I wrote more and didn't save them (I think I found some old ones via the archive.org thingy too). Those two survived because they were both archived by other people. Notably for both of those, they were mostly settings and flavor and very light on rules, or took rules from elsewhere. They aren't that great. I did alot of art back in those days as well.

And to answer JamesV:
I really don't think it mattered much. I love creating content- I think that's the place to really do creative work, but I have found over the years that content creation is not really considered to be game design. "System does matter" basicly translates into "new ways of rolling dice is more important than content".

Quote from: Abyssal MawWait, is that not getting through? That's my fucking point, right there.

So, what, we should all be playing white box D&D?
Oh, wait, hang on, no, we should be playing fantasy wargames.
Nope, wait, that's not it, we should be playing napoleonic wargames.
Wait... no, um... chess? Checkers?
The Royal Game of Ur?

Grim:

People should all be playing whatever they like to play, regardless.

I am saying this:
Game design shouldn't be the primary focus of the hobby, and certainly not the creative entry point.

I'm saying that the notion that designing games is the "important creative part" of the hobby is actually false. It is neither as creative or as important as it is made out to be.

I'm saying that being actually engaged in the hobby is important.  

That's clearly a whole passel of opinion positions. I don't care if you disagree, but please understand them.

Well, I write games myself, so I'm biased.

But I'd say you have the creator of the field...
...they enable the creators of the games...
...who enable the people who run the games...
...who enable the people who play the games.

You can't play a game if a guy can't run a game.
You can't run a game without something to run.
You can't create a game within a field without the initial innovator within that field.

I appreciate what you're saying, but you seem to be bringing it out as anti creativity or innovation.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI'll just drop it at that unless you guys want to keep arguing. I don't care if you disagree or not. I'm mainly still just clarifying because I feel like you don't understand.

Maybe you should only bust on on folks when they start behavin' like wankers (going on a one true way rant for instance), not when they are having fun talking about designing games.

Regards,
David R

Character sheet:

-------------------------------------------------------
"I'm really good at __________________." D20

"I'm really bad at __________________." D6



"My greatest friend or love is _______________" +/-D20

"My greatest rival or enemy is _______________" +/-D10

--------------------------------------------------------

Chargen: For good/bad, name anything you want, subject to group veto for wankery like "I'm really good at being the best at everything" or "I'm really bad at failing." For friend/rival, at least one should be another player-character. This need not be reciprocal.

All players take turns setting a scene. If a Player-character isn't in a scene at the outset, that character's player can have an entrance with the scene-setter's permission. Once the scene's set, everyone free-narrates what's happening, each player narrating the actous of their own PC, and freely sharing narration of any other characters. Free-play like this until a player objects to another's action, on behalf of their own PC or an NPC.

The player who called for a conflict rolls against the player taking action, with the appropriate character die if his PC is opposing. If an NPC is opposing, roll a D10; if it's the PC's friend or rival, roll a D20. Winner wins the conflict, and narrates how.

What to roll: default die is D10, roll D20 or D6 if the action falls under the character's "good at"/"bad at" respectively. Both subject to approval of both players in the conflict, with group arbitration in a deadlock. If the friend and/or rival are involved, roll the appropriate die. Add it if the friend/rival is supporting the character or is at a disadvantage, or subtract it if they are opposing the character/have the disadvantage.


There it is. A little over-explainy, maybe, I apologize.

Peace,
-Joel

Quote from: MelinglorFor good/bad, name anything you want, subject to group veto for wankery like "I'm really good at being the best at everything"

Way back in college, I was making up a character for a friend who wanted to play, but didn't want to learn every single rule of Champions and when asked he said (roughly) "Why, my character is really good at being the best there is at everything!"

I replied:  "How about your character is really good at believing that he's the best there is at everything!"

"Even better!" my friend replied, a nasty gleam in his eye.  And boy, he worked that skill to death in the game that followed.

Good times, good times.  Thanks for the stroll down memory lane!

No prob!

Hmm.  False dicotomies and implications of dysfunction.

for someone who claims to hate the Forge so much, Maw sure reminds me a lot of them . . .

Which dysfunction am I implicating? I haven't been paying attention...

I'm just saying "Hey you! Become a game designer!" ain't that cool.