I've hit a brick wall with how to work sorcerery.

Essentially what I have is thus: there are four gods, the Fouor Celestials, who guard the borders of space from the external primal chaos. Each represents an aspect of power. Where there would be a fifth you have the centre of the universe: the galactic core. Within reside the Lords of Jade (the gods proper, in the traditional sense). Not a dissimilar setup to Craetion and its elemental poles in Exalted; a setu pI happen to think is cool.

Unfortunately the traditional elements work in a fantasy setting (like Exalted, where the poles represent the traditional elements of mystical theory). In an SF/spacefantasy it's not quite so easy: water is ok; fire, not too bad; Metal, ok; but earth and especially wood become tricky.

I am inclined toward just four elements and basing them on the four forces thus: gravity, electricity, nuclear and light (I know they aren't exactly the basic forces) but that becomes weird and nto entirely in keeping with the oriental theme.

But wood? In space?

The idea is that sorcerers, through a magical language that can be commanded through speech, gesnture and writing, can work magic by manipulating at least one (usually just one) of these 'elemental' forces.

EDIT: actually upon reflection, mauybe the answer is to focus on some other aspect of these five elements. In chinese myth there are many things synonymous with the elements that can be abstracted as funky sources of magic. Perhaps the Four Celestials are more like the animals Chinese myth assoicates with the elements (along with directions, times of day, etc). So each fo the Four Celestials is a cosmic variant thus, an ancient entity that offers power used by the sorcerers through Dragon Script. So you have space opera Turtle magic, Phoenix magic, Dragon magic, Tiger Magic and Snake Magic (iirc).

QuoteUnfortunately the traditional elements work in a fantasy setting (like Exalted, where the poles represent the traditional elements of mystical theory). In an SF/spacefantasy it's not quite so easy: water is ok; fire, not too bad; Metal, ok; but earth and especially wood become tricky.

I am inclined toward just four elements and basing them on the four forces thus: gravity, electricity, nuclear and light (I know they aren't exactly the basic forces) but that becomes weird and nto entirely in keeping with the oriental theme.

But wood? In space?

Fire = Heat/Nuclear Energy (Fission, Fusion, Combustion, Atomic Reactions)
Water = Cold/Chemical Energy (Hydraulics, Friction, Steam, Chemical Reactions)
Metal = Light/Electrical Energy (Static, Lightning, Electromagnetism, Time Travel)
Earth = Darkness/Gravitic Energy (Telluric Currents, Orbital Magnetism, Flight, Space Travel)
Wood = Stasis/Life Energy (Healing, Rejuvenation, Growth, Adaptation, Evolution)

I think Kellri has a good handle on dealing with "Wood" in space.  It helps to not think of each of the wu-hsing as substances so much as they are methods or modes of manifestation.  They're the manner in which things work, rather than the substances that comprise things.

Wood is the most biological of the elements, and represents birth, growth, withering, and eventual death.  It is strong and resistant, like Earth or Metal, yet flexible without the fluidity of Water or Air.  It incorporates as it grows, and builds tangible infrastructure even as it destroys (or is destroyed).

!i!

Of course Wood might be "Home", or hearth, and be applied to the need of air in space, the concept of plants for rejuvenating atmosphere, it is the interconnectedness of life even on the move across vast distances. Nearly every starship will have such oxygen reclaimers--plus many will have gardens for serenity connections to their home. Hence rebinding themselves to the traditional element is a given.



ALso consider the fact that people like plants--in their rooms little bamboo stands, on their desks little bonzai trees, and so on. Wood is the feeling of home, of hearth of connections of life. Any wuxia setting won't be cold metal starships--that doesn't fit the idea. Instead they will transform their living spaces--paper walls, mats, paintings, not the spartan decorations of much SF--instead living homes in the void.

So wood becomes nature, that works. What is the relationship in the cycles between elements between wood and metal?

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;360198So wood becomes nature, that works. What is the relationship in the cycles between elements between wood and metal?

Not sure what you mean by cycles?

 In the which beats which IIRC Metal beats wood, which beats water. Water beats fire. Fire beats metal.

Yeah, it is rather like a great cosmic game of Rochambeau.  Consulting Bill Whitcomb's estimable The Magician's Companion, he notes the outer, creative Yang cycle:
   Fire creates Earth
Earth creates Metal
Metal creates Water
Water creates Wood
Wood creates Fire
...and the inner, destructive Yin cycle:
   Wood destroys Earth (by covering it)
Fire destroys Metal (by melting it)
Earth destroys Water (by retaining it)
Metal destroys Wood (by cutting it)
Water destroys Fire (by extinguishing it)
Here's a slightly different interpretation of the wu-hsing, but still very compatible with Whitcomb's explanation:



Lastly, I've seen Wood equated with Akasha, Spirit, Ether, or Void in the attempt to reconcile the wu-hsing with Hindu tattwas or the Tibetan elements.  Make what you will of that.

!i!

In rationalising all this I'm finding my ideas getting bogged down in terms of an overarching cosmology/history. This is begining to hold me back and I'm not sure how to deal with that.

Try changing your focus from fluff to crunch. Write specifically rather than generally - in most cases, the gritty, specifics are what will be most useful in play anyways. Also, remember that the game and the setting should serve you (and facilitate gameplay) and not the other way around.

I'd say move to different material for a while--start thinking about the sci fi elements, or ships or something.

I am in the process of doing a very similar elemental system for Amber and I found that at the end of the day as Kellri it is specific effects that see use that you have to get to. A specifc list of what you can do with 'metal magic' than a more traditional (note I switched out Wood for Air for in game reasons)

Water
 Emotion
 Sound
 Conservation
 
Metal
 Resistance
 Smell
 Reduction
 
Earth
 Passivity
 Taste
 Stability
 
Air
 Divination
 Sight
 Generation
 
Fire
 Attack
 Speech
 Expansion
 
At the end of the day can I make big metal spikes appear in the air? can I shrink things? can I predict the future? These are the things you really need to know and making a list of effects that a player can combine is simpler than getting all metaphysical on 'em.

I think I want something a bit more than just elemental magic. I liked what they tried to do in Weapons of the Gods, but it didn't execute very well. But I can't help feeling that some semblance of the elemental cycle at least has to be present in any sorcery inspired by chinese myth/wuxia.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;361305I think I want something a bit more than just elemental magic. I liked what they tried to do in Weapons of the Gods, but it didn't execute very well. But I can't help feeling that some semblance of the elemental cycle at least has to be present in any sorcery inspired by chinese myth/wuxia.

Yean the problme is you approach these sort of things with big ideas about how it would work in a novel with wise sorcerers complieing all sorts of wonderful effects based on the inner meaning of 5 element philosophy or whatever, but in a game you end up with players not knowing what they can do and ending up chucking fireballs about becauses its quick simple and easy. That is why i think an effects list that is precise but open is a good compromise.

Quote from: jibbajibba;361307Yean the problme is you approach these sort of things with big ideas about how it would work in a novel with wise sorcerers complieing all sorts of wonderful effects based on the inner meaning of 5 element philosophy or whatever, but in a game you end up with players not knowing what they can do and ending up chucking fireballs about becauses its quick simple and easy. That is why i think an effects list that is precise but open is a good compromise.

Actually it's more about rationalising it in the context of scifi or even space fantasy. Sure it could all be the force, or the tao. But with a pure fantasy setting you can literally just say 'tis magic' and be satisfied. With a cosmic setting spanning interstellar space and across disparate worlds it's a little different. So having elemental magic is not quite so easy, simple or maybe even desirable.

Here is a very basic cosmological overview thus far.


Once upon a time, when there shined more than 10,000 stars, the universe was the playground of the Celestial Dragons. Their movements, as they danced through the stars, animated the living universe with the creation of Chi. In time, after countless millenia, some of the Dragons grew tired; where they slept the planets appeared. Only a few of the great creatures remained animate and from their breath we get the five essences of chi: the Wu Winds. The five awake Dragons promised to watch over their sleeping brethren and fashioned a clock of sorts: the Great Wheel(of the Dharma Worlds). As the Wheel complete's its cycle the Dragons would awaken to incarnate the universe anew and all within. So the Five danced and kept watch over the Great Wheel.

All but one of the Dragons slept, dreaming into existence the younger races (or so the scholars would have you believe) upon the planets that were themselves. That single entity found it's dreams nightmares instead; it could not rest and would, throughout time, seek to accelarate the Great Wheel to bring about the end - but dangerously early (according to the five who guarded them). This Dragon, Feng Du, splintered into multiple worlds with it's eye becoming the Black Sun of Sha (the antithesis of Chi, known commonly as Devil Breath). These worlds are the Hell Worlds and it was through the nightmares of their progenitor that the demons would arise to plague the 10,000 stars.


PS: I need an 'eye of terror' style name that's more apt than Black Sun (or Eye of Terror). I love the idea of the Eye of Terror. I want my own Eye of Terror; i would cuddle him and call him George. But I digress.