Because the quality of the game experience is almost totally reliant on the people you're playing with.  Especially the GM, and there's only so many people that have the talent and desire to become a good GM.

I don't think that the lack of hordes of people playing RPGs is a bad thing.

I agree with Pundit's point #1, disagree mostly with #2, and mildly agree with #3...

#2:
There are vast numbers of starter games out there, now, with a wide ranging level of 'crunch.' The problem is that The RPG is D&D, and it's at a high ebb of rules; the cool starter games out there are mainly known to folks who are already gamers.

#3:
I don't think gamers have a reputation for being lawncrappers outside of, well, gamers. To the nongamer, the reputation is a much more mild 'geeky freakyboy.' Which still slows acceptance.

Add to this other points -- gaming is a lengthy activity, requiring a bunch of people, hinging on people not having bad intro experiences and finding a group of people who get the game and are reasonably fun to hang with.

Other hobbies and modes of entertainment are a lot easier to 'solo;' while people might have friends over to watch a game, they can quite happily just watch by themselves, and switch as circumstances warrant. They can watch the game on a mini-TV while at a restaurant, or see it on a screen at a sports bar.

Quotedon't think gamers have a reputation for being lawncrappers outside of, well, gamers. To the nongamer, the reputation is a much more mild 'geeky freakyboy.' Which still slows acceptance.

I'm not sure what the formal definitions are for lawncrappers, geeks, and freakyboys... but this is pretty much the stereotype a lot of non gamers have of people who play RPGs.

Fear of Girls | Google Video | 11 min 12 sec

Search your feelings Will, you know it to be true.

Looking at the younger market, why the fuck should they play the game the way they want to? They get made fun of for powergaming, munchkinism, and other bullshit that people who want to play Hovels & Serfs toss out there.

If you try to talk about your 64th level Wizard and his friends who went to the Ethereal plane and fought it out with a Githyanki strike squad and their ghostly dragon mounts, you get fucked with.

"That's not how you play, you guys don't get it at all!" and other outcries.

SO they go back to video games, where the derided "male power fantasy" still holds sway.

There's probably other reasons why the 15-20 year old players are being lost, but that's my theory.

Now pardon me, it's 8 AM, and I'm still sober.

Quote from: StuartI'm not sure what the formal definitions are for lawncrappers, geeks, and freakyboys... but this is pretty much the stereotype a lot of non gamers have of people who play RPGs.

Well, I distinguish 'oh, God, what a nerd' from 'oh, God, he left a stain where he was sitting.'

Basically a matter of degree; most people have not hung out with gamers, and as a consequence have not met the really wackjob folks.

Whereas we gamers have, or at least the stories are bandied about.

I'm not sure, but I thought it was important to avoid confusing our perceptions from outsider perceptions.

Hmm. So I'd argue:
Outsider has a dim idea of RPGs as 'geek D&Ders.' A mild aversion to hanging out with geeks, but maybe finds them mostly harmless types as seen on TV.

Outsider actually considers gaming, hangs out with some gamers. At this point, the Catpiss man stories and experiences come into play. Outsider recoils from gaming.

Why isn't fly fishing more popular?  Or model railroad building?  Or pottery?  Or sewing circles?

It's a hobby, most hobbies aren't that popular, why should this one be?

Quote from: RPGPunditThe real question you SHOULD be asking is "why aren't more males age 15-25 getting into RPGs"? Because that's the target demographic; that's the one that should be EASY, the no-brainer, the base.  And we aren't getting enough people from that base joining up.

Girls are not allowed to game in your planet?

Other than that I agree with #1 and #2, a bit less with #3.

Quote from: ImperatorGirls are not allowed to game in your planet?

Of course they are. They're just not the traditional core demographic. Pundit is expressing concern because if interest among the core demographic is waning without a correspondingly large increase in interest anywhere else, that's obviously problematic.

There's also the implicit message that worrying about fringe demograpics when the core is suffering is like electing to treat a papercut before an arterial hemmohorage.

Quote from: YamoOf course they are. They're just not the traditional core demographic.

I thought that all those female pronouns in 3rd Edition D&D were going to fix that.  I guess it's the mechanics that will end up luring all the babes into the hobby after all.

Quote from: YamoOf course they are. They're just not the traditional core demographic. Pundit is expressing concern because if interest among the core demographic is waning without a correspondingly large increase in interest anywhere else, that's obviously problematic.

There's also the implicit message that worrying about fringe demograpics when the core is suffering is like electing to treat a papercut before an arterial hemmohorage.

I see your point, and is a good one. I agree in full. But I'd like to make clear to the Pundit that we're not in 1986 anymore, and the demographic has changed, at least in my experience here. I understand that my experience is anecdotal data, but so is the Pundit, and at least mine is from this century.

In most cons, gaming groups and boards I've checked in the the last 3 years, the girls' share is quite near 50% (though most gamers are still male). The age range has also grown, ranging from 10 -12 to 50.

Quote from: ImperatorIn most cons, gaming groups and boards I've checked in the the last 3 years, the girls' share is quite near 50% (though most gamers are still male).

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "the girls' share"... do you think nearly 50% of gamers (eg. 45%) are female while most (eg. 55%) are still male?

Quote from: StuartI'm not sure I understand what you mean by "the girls' share"... do you think nearly 50% of gamers (eg. 45%) are female while most (eg. 55%) are still male?

No, it's not what I think. It's what I've seen and my experience. I understand that's just anecdotal data, but I'm convinced that the core demographical group has quite changed.

Quote from: StuartI'm not sure what the formal definitions are for lawncrappers, geeks, and freakyboys... but this is pretty much the stereotype a lot of non gamers have of people who play RPGs.

Fear of Girls | Google Video | 11 min 12 sec

Search your feelings Will, you know it to be true.

Luckily I've never met fuckers that sad, and I hardly believe they even exist.

Quote from: ImperatorNo, it's not what I think. It's what I've seen and my experience. I understand that's just anecdotal data, but I'm convinced that the core demographical group has quite changed.

I guess you must be talking about Spain, and the demographics over there -- which is awesome!

Certainly in Canada, and I can only assume the US as well, there are probably a lot more female gamers than there were in the 80s... but it's nowhere near 50%. It's a good goal to work towards though, and I think that requires thinking about the way the games are marketed, as well as what the games are about.

Quote from: StuartI guess you must be talking about Spain, and the demographics over there -- which is awesome!

Certainly in Canada, and I can only assume the US as well, there are probably a lot more female gamers than there were in the 80s... but it's nowhere near 50%. It's a good goal to work towards though, and I think that requires thinking about the way the games are marketed, as well as what the games are about.

Absolutely. And here in Spain we have to thank Vampire for that, as well as Cthulhu, Unknown Armies, 7th Sea, L5R and some other games that are considered a big entry for girls. That is the reason why I disagree with the Pundit.