I'm in the process of designing a system for a private group of friends. On a basic level the system is pretty old school and resembles something most of us are well familiar with. For that reason, I thought I would throw this question I encountered out there.

The basis of player characters are six attributes only slightly different from the D&D norm: STRength, FORtitude, DEXterity, PERception, INTelligence, and CHArisma. Let's call them primary attributes. These are grouped in pairs, forming six subsets of secondary attributes. That is - for now there is only five and this is where we arrive at my question:

Is there a secondary attribute that it would make sense to derive from STR and CHA?

It's not that there absolutely has to be, but the five other subsets came so naturally to me that this last one got me wondering. I considered a "leadership" attribute, but couldn't really provide rationale behind having STR be important there. "Intimidation/interrogation" could make sense, but is a bit too minor compared to the other derivatives. I would rather have it as a skill linked to either attribute as this is also a thing within my system's rules.

To give you an idea of what I'm looking for, these are the five secondary attributes and the pairs of primary attributes they are derived from:

STR
|||||> Resist physical trauma. Deals with resistance vs. crushing blows, etc
FOR

FOR
|||||> Physical defense. Deals with avoiding/reducing incoming damage.
DEX

DEX
|||||> Speed/reflexes. Deals with initiatives and some in-combat actions
PER

PER
|||||> Awareness. Picking up subtle clues. Noticing details.
INT

INT
|||||> Willpower. Used for some mental defenses and generally tests of will
CHA

CHA
|||||>  ?
STR


So, any ideas? Again, I don't absolute need another derivative, but it would be more elegant to have one.

It could represent a 'fierceness' in battle, sort of like a Presence Attack in Hero but more combat-oriented.

Quote from: gonster;687058It could represent a 'fierceness' in battle, sort of like a Presence Attack in Hero but more combat-oriented.

That's all I can think of. An ability used in hand to hand to 'dominate' the enemy.

Grace.

Quote from: Bill;687059

Quote from: gonster;687058It could represent a 'fierceness' in battle, sort of like a Presence Attack in Hero but more combat-oriented.

That's all I can think of. An ability used in hand to hand to 'dominate' the enemy.

That's an intriguing idea. I will have to read up this "presence attack". But "dominate" sounds akin to "subdue". Maybe a way to end a combat in a non-lethal way.

Quote from: fuseboy;687069Grace.

Hmm. Can you elaborate on that?

before responding, I got 'Combat Presence', though I like 'Fierceness' better.  The idea is that represents not just the appearance and presence of normal charisma, but adds in the size, and musculature with the ability to know how to showcase it in the right way.  The ability to make people think you are just not worth messing with, or the ability to take command in a martial situation.

I think it represents how hunky you are.

Quote from: johnnih;687079Hmm. Can you elaborate on that?

I mean 'grace' as in 'gracefulness'. I suppose, literally, it's physical charisma.  Your movements are strong and certain, but also beautiful, like those of a dancer - not choppy or erratic. Good posture, a regal bearing.  Brendan may have put his finger on it with 'hunkiness'.  (A scrawny joker might have great charisma, but he's graceless.)

It's the foundation of dancing. (You could argue that dancing should be dex based, but it makes as much sense to root dance in Str as it does to root melee to-hit bonuses in Str.)

How about Physique.

Your Physical appearance or first impression versus actual interacting which would be covered by Charisma.

So could be used for Intimidation or gauging first impressions etc.

Just a thought

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;687089I think it represents how hunky you are.

It's the 'Channing Tatum Factor'

Presence.  The power you bring with you.  High presence means everyone notices when you enter the room.

Nice suggestions : ) I'll go with one/combination of those.

Quote from: johnnih;687057I'm in the process of designing a system for a private group of friends. On a basic level the system is pretty old school and resembles something most of us are well familiar with. For that reason, I thought I would throw this question I encountered out there.

The basis of player characters are six attributes only slightly different from the D&D norm: STRength, FORtitude, DEXterity, PERception, INTelligence, and CHArisma. Let's call them primary attributes. These are grouped in pairs, forming six subsets of secondary attributes. That is - for now there is only five and this is where we arrive at my question:

Is there a secondary attribute that it would make sense to derive from STR and CHA?

It's not that there absolutely has to be, but the five other subsets came so naturally to me that this last one got me wondering. I considered a "leadership" attribute, but couldn't really provide rationale behind having STR be important there. "Intimidation/interrogation" could make sense, but is a bit too minor compared to the other derivatives. I would rather have it as a skill linked to either attribute as this is also a thing within my system's rules.

To give you an idea of what I'm looking for, these are the five secondary attributes and the pairs of primary attributes they are derived from:

STR
|||||> Resist physical trauma. Deals with resistance vs. crushing blows, etc
FOR

FOR
|||||> Physical defense. Deals with avoiding/reducing incoming damage.
DEX

DEX
|||||> Speed/reflexes. Deals with initiatives and some in-combat actions
PER

PER
|||||> Awareness. Picking up subtle clues. Noticing details.
INT

INT
|||||> Willpower. Used for some mental defenses and generally tests of will
CHA

CHA
|||||>  ?
STR


So, any ideas? Again, I don't absolute need another derivative, but it would be more elegant to have one.

Two questions:

Why only those combinations, rather than all the possible ones?

If you're simply going in order, why that order, and do you need to loop back from CHA to STR?


On another note, I hate a separate perception stat. Noticing a typo is a function of a literacy skill, noticing the open receiver is a function of the quarterback skill, etc. I can buy "perceptive" as an advantage, but not a core attribute.

Quote from: LordVreeg;687085before responding, I got 'Combat Presence', though I like 'Fierceness' better.  The idea is that represents not just the appearance and presence of normal charisma, but adds in the size, and musculature with the ability to know how to showcase it in the right way.  The ability to make people think you are just not worth messing with, or the ability to take command in a martial situation.

Intimidation would work. I'm not sure about the taking command bit though, I think of it more as your affect on potential opponents.

Quote from: fuseboy;687092I mean 'grace' as in 'gracefulness'. I suppose, literally, it's physical charisma.  Your movements are strong and certain, but also beautiful, like those of a dancer - not choppy or erratic. Good posture, a regal bearing.  Brendan may have put his finger on it with 'hunkiness'.  (A scrawny joker might have great charisma, but he's graceless.)

It's the foundation of dancing. (You could argue that dancing should be dex based, but it makes as much sense to root dance in Str as it does to root melee to-hit bonuses in Str.)

That's more about strength to weight ratios. If you can squat 200 pounds but you weigh 100 you are going to be more agile than if you squat 200 pounds but weigh 200.

Quote from: Artifacts of Amber;687108How about Physique.

Your Physical appearance or first impression versus actual interacting which would be covered by Charisma.

So could be used for Intimidation or gauging first impressions etc.

Just a thought

For pure looks I tend towards CON (health) + CHA.

Quote from: apparition13;687423Two questions:

Why only those combinations, rather than all the possible ones?

If you're simply going in order, why that order, and do you need to loop back from CHA to STR?

I don't want all possible combinations. I want the system semi-simple. I started out with the ones I knew I wanted (3-4), another one then just presented itself (INT+PER). I don't need a STR+CHA as I said - it doesn't have to "wrap around". It would just complete the circle elegantly. Not sure I will go with it - I won't unless I have a clear purpose for it.

Quote from: apparition13;687423On another note, I hate a separate perception stat. Noticing a typo is a function of a literacy skill, noticing the open receiver is a function of the quarterback skill, etc. I can buy "perceptive" as an advantage, but not a core attribute.

I think we agree on the checks. I use skills linked to attributes for many rolls and only default to attribute checks when skills aren't applicable.

As for perception, I use it for a lot of things. Among others for fighting. One of the way it is employed in combat, is that ranged attacks rely on both DEX and PER depending on what you are doing, as I have STR and DEX linked to different melee manoeuvres.

Quote from: apparition13;687423Intimidation would work. I'm not sure about the taking command bit though, I think of it more as your affect on potential opponents.

Yeah, it won't be used for command/looks. I think that's CHA territory. I'm considering using it for a "fear quality" as a way to win combats without killing everything. Like having an opposed STR/CHA vs. INT/CHA (or simply morale) morale check to scare off monsters when the intimidating PC slaughters someone in a spectacular manner (critical hit, etc).

Presence

Leadership

Coercion

Force

Domination

Confidence