Quote from: HinterWeltIt was mostly a case of the jackyls saw a lone lion and decided to tear him down.

There are pieces of jackyl in my stool. Otherwise I sure wouldn't be here.

QuoteI am not really one to hang out where the general consensus is that "my type" are not welcome. I am borderline about theRPGSite just due to the "If you post here you support Pundit" vibe but that is different.

The possibility that I'm in some way supporting his innane rants bothers me far more than the jackyls do. But I get over it because I'd rather not close myself off to other POVs, POV that might get scared away from places that are more 'comfortable' for me (though I go there too, gotta have a breather).

Quote from: HinterWeltYeah, see, this is still not an incharacter mechanic to me. It is a mechanic that you as the player are aware of but that your character is not. So, your character is not invoking an ability but you, the player, is invoking an ability to "remember" that you set a trap or, more to the point, change the plot/past.

Generally, I prefer to resolve actions with in-character abilities (would that word work better?) and not player functions.

That's why I find your description of Karma fairly jarring, and to a much lesser extent clash's Luck. It's like you leapfrogged right over me down the non-character action path. Perhaps the root of the feedback from your customer base as well?

Anyway hats off for pushing the envelope a bit because of something you think will bring fun to the table, even if it takes a second pass to square it off to make it more palitable to your customer base.

Quote from: blakkieThere are pieces of jackyl in my stool. Otherwise I sure wouldn't be here.

The possibility that I'm in some way supporting his innane rants bothers me far more than the jackyls do. But I get over it because I'd rather not close myself off to other POVs, POV that might get scared away from places that are more 'comfortable' for me (though I go there too, gotta have a breather).

Oh, to be sure, I still go to SG. I don;t go to the Forge mainly because they did not have a lot to offer me and apparently I did not have much to offer them. Such is life and the internet.

Bill

Quote from: blakkieThat's why I find your description of Karma fairly jarring, and to a much lesser extent clash's Luck. It's like you leapfrogged right over me down the non-character action path. Perhaps the root of the feedback from your customer base as well?

Anyway hats off for pushing the envelope a bit because of something you think will bring fun to the table, even if it takes a second pass to square it off to make it more palitable to your customer base.

Here is my issue. The way you phrase it, Karma does work that way. Maybe I am not grokking your angle but it seems you are still using an out of character mechanic but phrasing it in character. This is not the same as an in-character mechanic...I feel like I have failed my communications skill check. I need to spend some Karma to reroll.

Bill

I think you've mostly got it. I find the semantics helpful in getting to the 'right' headspace. Although I can do it without them it takes more effort.
*rerolls*

Quote...I feel like I have failed my communications skill check. I need to spend some Karma to reroll.

Would you consider that an in-character mechanic. Not specifically with Karma, as you've written it, but some limited resource associated directly with the character that allowed rerolls?

Would your answer matter how the character gained that resources?

Quote from: blakkieI think you've mostly got it. I find the semantics helpful in getting to the 'right' headspace. Although I can do it without them it takes more effort.
*rerolls*

Would you consider that an in-character mechanic. Not specifically with Karma, as you've written it, but some limited resource associated directly with the character that allowed rerolls?

Would your answer matter how the character gained that resources?

See, I would not consider that an in-character mechanic. Simply, because the source is "I want to reroll using my Karma". If it was a spell, like "Miscommunication" and I spent spell points then it is from the character, not the player. When the player is using meta-mechanics, it is a pool of resources applied from an out of setting source. Karma has no meaning in the setting, it is a meta-mechanic.

Now, minor point to some but a big one for me, you could internalize it but making it a spell, Feat or some other action the character may do to effect the world around him but it should never be one that goes from the character to the game. For example, a character using his "Luck" pool to get a reroll is still a meta-mechanic. However, I will admit this is very borderline as I could see it as a stat and an in-character representation of the character's luck.

A good example of both sides of this issue for me is, say, a World Bending power. You could represent it as a spend x points and change plot.Period. This seems an out of character meta-mechanic. In character, you would spend your Life Energy Points to bend the reality so that fire erupts from a gas main. Really, the mechanic is the same, spend points, state effect, observe effect. However, the source that the player is using is different. The former, a meta-mechanic point that has no effect on the character in the game, the latter a "life draining" point that directly effects the character in game.

Again, I feel I have rambled without being as clear as I should be. Sorry if I am making this difficult on you.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltSee, I would not consider that an in-character mechanic. Simply, because the source is "I want to reroll using my Karma". If it was a spell, like "Miscommunication" and I spent spell points then it is from the character, not the player. When the player is using meta-mechanics, it is a pool of resources applied from an out of setting source. Karma has no meaning in the setting, it is a meta-mechanic.

Now, minor point to some but a big one for me, you could internalize it but making it a spell, Feat or some other action the character may do to effect the world around him but it should never be one that goes from the character to the game. For example, a character using his "Luck" pool to get a reroll is still a meta-mechanic. However, I will admit this is very borderline as I could see it as a stat and an in-character representation of the character's luck.

A good example of both sides of this issue for me is, say, a World Bending power. You could represent it as a spend x points and change plot.Period. This seems an out of character meta-mechanic. In character, you would spend your Life Energy Points to bend the reality so that fire erupts from a gas main. Really, the mechanic is the same, spend points, state effect, observe effect. However, the source that the player is using is different. The former, a meta-mechanic point that has no effect on the character in the game, the latter a "life draining" point that directly effects the character in game.

Again, I feel I have rambled without being as clear as I should be. Sorry if I am making this difficult on you.

Bill

How long did we spend standing there next to the cars talking about this, Bill?  It's a tough subject - partially just to get agreement on the underlying terminology, and partially because that is so hard to reach because of the difference in how people see what's in character and what is meta.

It's a very fine line.  Like I've said, you spend karma as a player, you're getting your meta in my immesrion; but you make karma an attribute of the character that has this effect or that possibility (even to the point of allowing a re-roll) and it makes it in-character.

And others might not see that same bright red line in that same place....

Say I called the reroll Second Effort? Because inspite of the lambasting he recieved in the sports press, Randy Moss was correct in his dismissing of the tired cliche of giving 100%+ all the time. :keke:

As for 'Karma' that name suggests something specific to me. Something akin to magic, a kind of divine magic. But I think you do bring up a valid point about how appropriate it is for the setting, that does mean something to me.

QuoteA good example of both sides of this issue for me is, say, a World Bending power. You could represent it as a spend x points and change plot.Period. This seems an out of character meta-mechanic. In character, you would spend your Life Energy Points to bend the reality so that fire erupts from a gas main. Really, the mechanic is the same, spend points, state effect, observe effect. However, the source that the player is using is different. The former, a meta-mechanic point that has no effect on the character in the game, the latter a "life draining" point that directly effects the character in game.

That's where Burning Wheel Wises work for me. One of the ways you use them is "world bending" but only where the world isn't already set. Wises are character knowledge skills. Because they are a Skill of the character, rooted in the character's "Perception" stat like all academic skills, it feels to me a lot like the character knowing stuff. But mechanically  [EDIT: one of their uses] are like Quantum physics where measuring something is what actually sets the state (which goes against "common sense" but appears to be a really accurate model of how the universe actually works, at a certain level).

Same thing with Circles. It is something very much about the character. What jobs they have previously held, what organizations they belong to, what their general reputation is. It's all about the characters. But mechanically it brings NPCs into existance.

The key IMO is that if you think about it from the character's POV it makes sense to the character. If you think about it from the game mechanics POV then it becomes mechanical. Not unlike, IMO, if you think about your character trying swinging a sword it makes character sense but if you think about it as rolling a d20 over/under some number then it becomes mechanical. That's why the semantics of how it is presented mean something to me. If your words in the rules get me thinking from the POV of the character I see it as the character would and I'm there.

QuoteAgain, I feel I have rambled without being as clear as I should be. Sorry if I am making this difficult on you.

If it was that difficult I'd just STFU, mentally write 'loonie' under your name [in ink], and move on. I've done that before here, on rare occation, just not with you....yet.

I'm not sure that there is any such thing as "hippie" game design since most of the forge stuff have mechanics that have been used for many years. The only real difference is the how much they focus on particular mechanics to generate specific style of play.

Quote from: blakkieSay I called the reroll Second Effort? Because inspite of the lambasting he recieved in the sports press, Randy Moss was correct in his dismissing of the tired cliche of giving 100%+ all the time. :keke:

As for 'Karma' that name suggests something specific to me. Something akin to magic, a kind of divine magic. But I think you do bring up a valid point about how appropriate it is for the setting, that does mean something to me.

I picked it for just that reason. It is derived from character stats so it is not a clear cut issue. I do not wish to give the impression that this is an on/off matter. It is a very blurred and graduated affair. On one end, in-character on the other, meta-mechanics.

Quote from: blakkieThat's where Burning Wheel Wises work for me. One of the ways you use them is "world bending" but only where the world isn't already set. Wises are character knowledge skills. Because they are a Skill of the character, rooted in the character's "Perception" stat like all academic skills, it feels to me a lot like the character knowing stuff. But mechanically  [EDIT: one of their uses] are like Quantum physics where measuring something is what actually sets the state (which goes against "common sense" but appears to be a really accurate model of how the universe actually works, at a certain level).

Not entirely shure I parse that 100% but I would call it in-character since it is based in the "Character skills" and the character does something, it is not the player talkign to the GM but the character performing an action in setting. And yes, that is a lot of semantics.

Quote from: blakkieSame thing with Circles. It is something very much about the character. What jobs they have previously held, what organizations they belong to, what their general reputation is. It's all about the characters. But mechanically it brings NPCs into existance.

But is it an action of the characters? I do not know BW so I cannot say. Is a "Circle" something that the player or the character invokes? If the player decides this as part of the character generation, then I would call it a meta-mechanic. If the player decides the "Circle" then the character uses it in setting, well, that is in-character.

Quote from: blakkieThe key IMO is that if you think about it from the character's POV it makes sense to the character. If you think about it from the game mechanics POV then it becomes mechanical. Not unlike, IMO, if you think about your character trying swinging a sword it makes character sense but if you think about it as rolling a d20 over/under some number then it becomes mechanical. That's why the semantics of how it is presented mean something to me. If your words in the rules get me thinking from the POV of the character I see it as the character would and I'm there.

Hmm, I think I am seeing where you are coming from. You are saying any mechanic can be in-character by switching your POV so that the rule is explained in-character.

I differ slightly. What I am saying is that the rule for using a sword is one that is meant to be used in-character to describe the swords effect int he game. It  is something that the character uses and interacts with. How it is resolved does not matter.

However, if you were to have a mechanic called "Special Player Points" that you use to guarantee a natural twenty on a roll independent of anything your character is aware of (not an effect of the sword, not a spell, not intervention of the gods) then you have a meta-mechanic. Now, you could definitely describe this effect in-character by saying it is his incredible weapon mastery or the will of the gods, a spell or the effect of the magic sword. This is possible. However, it would change the nature of the rule and force it to regenerate "Special Player Points" in-game. The sword would need a mechanism (x points per person slain with it) or the gods would need to rest or the spell would need to be re-learned.

Quote from: blakkieIf it was that difficult I'd just STFU, mentally write 'loonie' under your name [in ink], and move on. I've done that before here, on rare occation, just not with you....yet.

Well, I always like to check as I can be verbose and obtuse all at the same time.

Bill

Quote from: James J SkachHow long did we spend standing there next to the cars talking about this, Bill?  It's a tough subject - partially just to get agreement on the underlying terminology, and partially because that is so hard to reach because of the difference in how people see what's in character and what is meta.

It's a very fine line.  Like I've said, you spend karma as a player, you're getting your meta in my immesrion; but you make karma an attribute of the character that has this effect or that possibility (even to the point of allowing a re-roll) and it makes it in-character.

And others might not see that same bright red line in that same place....

James,
Most definitely. I don't think it is a definite on or off thing though. It is one of those shades of grey kinds of things.

Karma is a great example of a meta-mechanic that can draw from in-character stats. It does not take much to say it is the "Cosmic good will" of past deeds. It is pretty easy for players to see it as a traditional character mechanic as opposed to a pool of player driven plot altering points. I really should think about a means to have them regenerate in game time...

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltJames,
Most definitely. I don't think it is a definite on or off thing though. It is one of those shades of grey kinds of things.

Karma is a great example of a meta-mechanic that can draw from in-character stats. It does not take much to say it is the "Cosmic good will" of past deeds. It is pretty easy for players to see it as a traditional character mechanic as opposed to a pool of player driven plot altering points. I really should think about a means to have them regenerate in game time...

Bill

After reading your response to monsieur blakkie, it gets even murkier in my head. Take your sword example.  There's a stat or skill or attribute that's meant to indicate how good the character is with the sword, right? But what it really ends up indicating is how much chance will end up getting involved in the success or failure determination when the character attempts to use said weapon. High skill, less chance of failure (to boil it down to some really simple terms).

It seems that what happens with something like Karma, whether in character or out, is that this element of chance is overridden, or side-stepped. Perhaps why I can see it as being OK as a specific mechanical effect is that it doesn't mess too much with that random element. For example, one could re-roll and still fail. It's when something becomes certain that it gets hinky, for me.

I'm calling it The Uncertainty Principle of Gaming - cause you know me, I like shiny terms. Mechanics, whether meta-game or in character, that remove the uncertainty of a situation will step on my buzz.  Not necessarily your buzz, not necessarily Joe Story Gamer's buzz, not necessarily Average Dragonsfoot Poster's buzz - my buzz. I think.  Right now.  As I drift off to sleep.

Eh...I'm still working on it....

Quote from: James J SkachAfter reading your response to monsieur blakkie, it gets even murkier in my head. Take your sword example.  There's a stat or skill or attribute that's meant to indicate how good the character is with the sword, right? But what it really ends up indicating is how much chance will end up getting involved in the success or failure determination when the character attempts to use said weapon. High skill, less chance of failure (to boil it down to some really simple terms).

It seems that what happens with something like Karma, whether in character or out, is that this element of chance is overridden, or side-stepped. Perhaps why I can see it as being OK as a specific mechanical effect is that it doesn't mess too much with that random element. For example, one could re-roll and still fail. It's when something becomes certain that it gets hinky, for me.

I'm calling it The Uncertainty Principle of Gaming - cause you know me, I like shiny terms. Mechanics, whether meta-game or in character, that remove the uncertainty of a situation will step on my buzz.  Not necessarily your buzz, not necessarily Joe Story Gamer's buzz, not necessarily Average Dragonsfoot Poster's buzz - my buzz. I think.  Right now.  As I drift off to sleep.

Eh...I'm still working on it....

See, and this is part of what I mean by meta-mechanic though. Karma is:
1. Derived from 1/2 the LUCK stat of the character.
2. Regenerates at the end of a game session (note: note in game time)
3. 1 point can be used for re-rolls.
4. 3 points to alter the story or enter a story effect (Bad guy trips allowing you to catch him).

Note, the effect is in game (You can't use Karma to get the GM to buy pizza) so is in-character but the mechanic are 1/2 out of game (regenerate at end of game session and 3 points to change the plot). So, yeah, Karma is a tricky one. However, the sword is in character, the effect, the item, the rules all deal with its effect in the setting. It will not supercede the setting rules. Karma can. It can make up = down, night into day, and alter the way the setting works.

To me, that is meta-mechanics.

As to the random element, yes, I have had play testers and customers disgruntled about that. I never thought it would have been such an issue but, meh, it was.

Bill

A game like Burning Wheel impressed me because some of those "hippy" mechanics were a way to open up communication to the GM regarding how the player viewed their character.  The push buttons to spur the character were right there.  Creating setting pieces that players will react to can be hard and giving some of that responsibility to the players seemed to be a fairly good idea.  Granted I have heard quite a bit of criticism regarding the tone of the book.  

I don't think they're necessarily needed but I think they provide a fine framework of things to keep in mind as a GM even playing different games.  Communicate with the players about what they want out of a game.  Sounds simple but it's just as easy not to do.

Quote from: HinterWelt>>> 4. 3 points to alter the story or enter a story effect (Bad guy trips allowing you to catch him).

That's where you lose me, and I agree with James that the non-random of it part of the problem. Especially since good things can come from it.

Shadowrun 3 and prior had the Hand Of God, you permanently burned your Karma Pool to avoid certain death (Shadowrun is generally a deadly if you get caught in a bad spot, like in a firefight without cover). Very expensive. Further you only got to use it once for the entire character's life. And here is another important part. It didn't get you out of trouble, the result was not a 'good' situation. It was just that you weren't dead. You got another chance to dig yourself out but you had to use your Skills and wits to do that. Oh, and you couldn't rely on the bonus dice from your Karma Pool because you just blew that away.

I can live with that. Partly because I'll hold my nose and take the lesser of the evils. I can even live with the SR4 version which only permanently burns a point of Edge (a stat bought up just like any other character stat) which is roughly the equivalent of few sessions worth of Karma (more or less because stat cost is a sliding scale) and can be reused more than once in the character's lifetime.

It's like a grading list of:
- does it just give you a chance?
- is it semantically tied to the character's abilities?
- how often can it happen?
- are the results 'good' or just 'not quite as devistating'
- is it a really 'tough' game otherwise? is this something I'll have a lot of demand for, moreso than how often it can be used? basically is it a saftey valve that'll only blow when the tension gets too much or is it something that won't let the tension build up
- does it fit the setting
- is earning the chance to do this a character thing (as opposed to a player thing like rewarding good IC roleplaying)