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At one time, when I still tinkered with games, I considered systems that modeled where on your body an attack feel nearly essential. But now it seems that no game design that did not feature them in a prior iteration seeks to exclude such subsystems, opting for a simpler damage tally or abstract wound track sort of system.

Have body hit systems fallen by the wayside?

I can understand why, to a certain extent. When tinkering with hit location systems in my Starfarer RPG, the resulting system was resisting attempts to simplify it without removing detail I felt necessary.

But there must be a way to do hit locations elegantly. I sort of have one as a d20 house rule, but it relies on being able to do short division in your head. Probably not terribly portable.

So what have you got? What games out there have done this sort of thing elegantly?

I knew there was a reason I kept WFRP so close to the computer.

In WFRP, attack rolls that hit are "reversed" into hit location rolls.  If I were to hit with an attack roll of 28, I would then check the hit location table entry for 82 (right leg, FYI.)  The only real step is looking up the chart, which I have on a 3x5 card in my GM binder.

It's the best hit location system I've encountered.  Keep in mind, though, that most of the hit location play I did was back in my early teens with houseruled Shadowrun.

Hit locations do seem to have a bit of a stigma to them, don't they?

Something about them just seems vaguely complicated.

I'm not terribly familiar with non-d20 games thus far... are there any really good ones?

"Elegantly" is the tough part.

Still, I think that WFRP2e has a system that works out pretty elegantly, and you could probably model any hit location system on a concept similar to theirs.

RPGPundit

I always liked Top Secret SI's version myself which used one of the numbers from the to hit roll to determine location but each "level" of skill let you bump it to nearby locations--so a really skilled person hit what they wanted more often than not.


In my mecha game I've got body-maps for people and mecha however it doesn't really have a mechanic behind it--players can choose to take a hit somewhere or target a foe in a specific spot.

I think some of the problems I have with hit location system are...

If a random roll means your shot in the head what could be normally survivable damage becomes lethal so it becomes harder for characters to judge when to pull out of a fight.

If you are shot in the head but survive because of your massive hit points (or whatever) at the power level you've reached, then removes some of the believability, because you expect people shot in the head to die (I know there are lots of cases for people surviving).

If you loose a limb, it is sometimes worse than having the character actually die. Dead character means I get to roll a new character and try a new concept, loosing a limb means I now have to roleplay a disabled character.

I used to pretty much insist on hit locations but now I think the complication is too much for most players. Elric! (Stormbringer 4/5) has a nice deal where armor has variable absorption, which represents hit locations somewhat. Also, IIRC both Elric! and the old Dragonquest handled hit locations via Criticals. Non-crits wouldn't have a special effect; crits would affect a specific area as part of their description.

That said I like Harnmaster if a group is into it.

Runequest4 has hit locations. But I'm not up on how they work in this iteration.

DJ uses an abstract system. You roll percentiles against the following chart:

• 01-60: Non-Vital (damage time 1)
• 61-75: Vital (damage times two)
• 76-90: Super Vital (three times damage)
• 91-00: Ultra Vital (four times damage)

So a broadsword (4d6 damage) could do from 4 to 96 points depending on the swordsman's luck. There is also a K/S Area that allows a Persona to chose where he'd like to hit.

The Chronicles of Ramlar, which just came out, uses hit locations, and does a decent job of keeping it simple.

See, you guys are giving me pangs of nostalgia.

I didn't care much for Harnmaster in general. I dug the damage system though, even though it was chart dependant.

WFRP and Top Secret SI were influential to my homebrews. Using methods like those to minimize rolling seems a good technique.

My problem when designing these systems is I all to often sacrifice playability for realism, and it gets complicated real fast. I cut to many corners, I soon begin to feel that it's not worth doing half way and I quickly drop back into hp/damage track mode.

Quote from: Caesar SlaadSee, you guys are giving me pangs of nostalgia.

WFRP isn't nostalgia. Its the future, baby...

RPGPundit

all of Hinterwelt's games have hit locations.

I like them and they don't seem to complicate or slow things down. A combat scene doesen't seem to take any longer that d20 or gurps does.

Question re: WFRP:  Does the hit location determination method result in certain locations being more likely based on skill level?  I would assume that if I had skill 31% then I'd have 4 chances to hit location 1 versus 3 chances to hit the other locations, but I haven't seen how they do it, so maybe I'm misinterpreting something.
RQ has a d20 with 7 locations: each arm, each leg, abdomen, chest and head, each with their own hit points and armor.  Arms have less hp than legs/abdomen/head (all the same), which have less than chest.  There are different charts for different body types - so a quadruped version, a winged quadruped version, etc.  In the previous edition, there were two versions of the chart - one for melee, one for missile.
In general, hit locations are bookkeeping intensive with little payback for the extra effort.  Its ultimately subjective whether its worth the effort, but the trend seems to be away from them as you note.

I think WFRP's system works pretty well because it doesn't require additional rolls.  I'm fine with some kind of hit location table so long as...

(1) Hit points in the system really represent physical damage and not abstract ... stuff ... like D&D, and

(2) The added complexity really adds something of value to the game.

I always thought Runequest did a pretty good job at both of these.  Sure, there was an extra roll or two in combat.  However, combat had the potential to be nasty, brutal, and short.  The increased number of rolls was offset by the shortened combat duration.

Honestly, though, I kinda dig abstraction nowadays.  In my FATE CoC game, I've been using arbitrary hit locations based on what makes sense.  In my AE game, I'll use locations for flavor (especially for criticals & death-blows) but otherwise ignore them.

-O

edit: I'll note after reading the post above mine that my feelings about RQ combat are purely aesthetic and were not arrived at through actual gameplay. :)

Another voice in favour of the elegance of WFRP reversed percentile to-hit roll here. Algauble asked if the WFRP system means that hit location varies according to skill level. I think the answer is yes. There is a recent thread (http://forum.blackindustries.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7922) on the Black Industries (http://forum.blackindustries.com/default.asp) board where this was discussed.

 HERO is another game that uses hit-locations. Not the supers games so much, but the use of hit locations does seem to be pretty common in the other genres, certainly if the comments on the HERO boards are anything to go by. Hit location in HERO requires another dice roll- something I don't like; but the rules for the effects of hit location- on damage and for the penalties for called shots- are pretty good. ;)

Anybody remember Aftermath with its thirty hit locations? That whole design philosophy was an 80s reaction to D&D, if you ask me.

I thought Millennium's End had the hit location system to end all hit locations.

You had various body maps to represent people running, standing, kneeling, etc. Then you overlayed a clear plastic template with various numbered dots depending on range and shooting patten (duckbilled shotguns, and swinging melee attacks had a wide flat spread). Then depending on what you rolled determined the dot you looked under. With 25 different numbered body segments you could hit. Then it determined if you fractured a body or hit vital organs depending on the bullets penetration.

Quote from: droogAnybody remember Aftermath with its thirty hit locations? That whole design philosophy was an 80s reaction to D&D, if you ask me.

Then there was Sword's Path: Glory and Rhand: Morningstar Missions.

Not just hit locations, but specific bones and internal organs.

That isn't what killed it for me (although I'd probaby never have used the game in actual play). It was the 1/12 second combat rounds which struck me as both cumbersome and unlikely to enhance realism. (In the way that too much "design for cause" winds up yielding unrealistic/undesirable effects.)

QuoteNot just hit locations, but specific bones and internal organs.

Crikey! Not for me – RQ was always my limit in terms of 'realism'.

Quote from: Elliot WilenThen there was Sword's Path: Glory and Rhand: Morningstar Missions.

Not just hit locations, but specific bones and internal organs.

Yeah, I seem to Remember Tri Tac Games' systems has a pretty specific tracking for injuries. Like tracking the path of the bullet through the body.

Quote from: droogAnybody remember Aftermath with its thirty hit locations? That whole design philosophy was an 80s reaction to D&D, if you ask me.

God yes, Aftermath! At least it had a logical system for shifting the hit location, although I can't remember the details of how it worked. For me Aftermath is most fondly remembered as the game in which me and my gaming buddies of the time first cut our teeth on romantic melodrama. Memories, sigh. ;)

The One Roll Engine (used in Godlike, Nemesis, and the upcoming Reign) uses hit locations, with an option for very detailed damage as well (i.e. specific organs/bones).

I used a random hit table in YotZ, but I also recommended it only be used against the zombies, or it soon sucks to be the PC's.

There used to be a hit by location system in D&D 3.0 in the DMG, but I don't think it was included in 3.5.

Gimme a sec

OK, I grabbed a screenshot of the PDF. There's the rough and ready hit by location rules. Nothing groundbreaking as far as rules go, I tried to use the rules already existing to simulate the effects of being hit in those locations.

It ain't realistic, but it's FUN!

Quote from: Mcrowall of Hinterwelt's games have hit locations.

I like them and they don't seem to complicate or slow things down. A combat scene doesen't seem to take any longer that d20 or gurps does.

Thanks Mike. To more detail. There are ten locations:
1 - Head
2 - Rt Arm
3 - Rt Shoulder
4 - Center Chest
5 - Lt Shoulder
6 - Lt Arm
7 - Stomach
8 - Groin
9 - Lt Leg
10 - Rt Leg

If a hit is made in comabat then the Targeting skill for that weapon is rolled and if successful (rolled under) then the attacker may direct the attack to a desired location. If Targeting is missed for that attack, then a d10 is rolled to randomly determine location. Each attack that hits has its own Targeting roll.

An important aspect of this is the Fortitude. You calculate Base Fortitude from (STR+CON+WIL)/3 + 1/2 CON which usually yields a number in the twenties or thirties. You then apply Base Fortitude like so:
1,4 - 1/2 Base Fortitude
7,8 - Base Fortitude
All other areas double Base Fortutude.

This is an attemt to model that the vital organs (Head, Chest, Stomach and Groin) a more susceptible to fatal damage than the limbs. Yes, I know, Femoral arteries and such but it is just an RPG.

And again, you can ratchet it up a notch with Parrying, Blocking and Dodging. Defense is the target number you must roll over to hit an opponent and is your (STR+AGL+CON)/3 and usually renders a number between 10-20 (although super human critters will push into the 20s with their Defense).

Like mike mentioned, it is about as speedy/complicated as GURPS or D20.

Bill

The problem I always had was all the freaky-ass monsters that you encounter in RPGs. It just doesn't make sense to use a human hit location chart for hydras, beholders, centaurs, dragons, etc. So do you have a million different charts or do you only use the chart for hits on humanoid opponents, which tends to fuck-over the (usually humanoid) PCs a lot more than their (often non-humanoid) enemies?

I just use degree of attack roll success and damage delivered as a guide to "hit location." Roll a crit and do a shitload of damage, I'll call it a sweet head shot. Deal a single point? That's more of a shoulder knick.

Quote from: YamoThe problem I always had was all the freaky-ass monsters that you encounter in RPGs. It just doesn't make sense to use a human hit location chart for hydras, beholders, centaurs, dragons, etc.

Not all games are D&D. ;) Plenty of games feature primarily human(oid) opponents.

I've seen otehr approaches... abstracting the hit results, extending the tables.

Of course, if I had a perfect answer, I wouldn't have started this thread.

Quote from: T-WillardIt ain't realistic, but it's FUN!

I remember reading this for the first time and thinking, "Hit locations in d20? That's a needless complication.  I suppose he wanted to make it more 'realistic'"

Then I thought, "Oh yeah.  Headshots." :o

QuoteMy problem when designing these systems is I all to often sacrifice playability for realism, and it gets complicated real fast.

For some people, this is not a dichotomy but siamese twins!

--Millennium`s End & Harnmaster & Twilight:2000 Veteran

Quote from: droogAnybody remember Aftermath with its thirty hit locations? That whole design philosophy was an 80s reaction to D&D, if you ask me.

Nobody who's taken a shot to the 12 ever entirely forgets it.

Quote from: BalbinusNobody who's taken a shot to the 12 ever entirely forgets it.

I've completely forgotten what all the hit location numbers were, but I can still see that one nestling in the centre of the diagram! ;)

WFRP's hit location system has a few things going for it.

1st it only requires 1 roll not a hit and a location roll.

2nd Skill does actually effect the odds of hitting certain locations even though it doesn't appear to do so at first.  Because you as you get better you can ad a to hit roll of 60, 70, 80 and 90 to your list of potential head shots.

3rd The location of the shot only matters if they have different armour and for the final critical.  If they have the same armour all over then you don't need to worry about the hit location (unless you want to) unless you are causing critical damage.  Then the location maters a great deal as a +3 crit to the head will have much different consequences then a +3 crit to the leg.

One other game that relies heavily on hit locations is Riddle of Steel.  Not only do hit locations matter but the type of swing as well for determining what actually gets hit.  For example a downward swing to the head won't freakishly hit the leg while a thrust to the body is very unlikely to hit anywhere else.  It's an extremely interesting combat system the no rules junkie should go without reading.  It's not perfect and is infact limiting.  But it's really worth a read.