Quote from: Elliot WilenThe "problem" that I alluded to as "colonizing" basically comes from responding to any criticism by denying that any of this is different from or inconsistent with what the critics already enjoy in their games. In fairness Vincent is far from the most extreme in this regard. Not even close. But it does come up among advocates of "thematic gaming". And aside from the outreach and handholding comments, my general sense of Dogs is that it's designed to perform a sort of RPG aikido: if you come in with traditional RPG impulses, it will rechannel their energy into thematic output.

Hm.  I don't find any problem with Dogs being deceptive as a game.  I think it's pretty clear from the point of dealing with initiation in character creation what the game is like.  

I have the opposite complaint, actually.  i.e. The advertised idea that something like Dogs or The Riddle of Steel is something completely different than Wraith or Adventure!  They're all games with a story-ish bent -- yet the claim is that Wraith is in some way essentially the same as D&D, whereas The Riddle of Steel is something essentially different.  I don't buy it.  TROS is a violent medieval adventure game.  Regarding Dogs -- yes, Dogs isn't very immersive-friendly, but that's also true of Feng Shui -- where you really can't think too hard as your character or things will start to fall apart.  There are lots of adventure games which aren't immersive.

Well, once again reality is multi-dimensional. Categories singling out one dimension can't catch all angles on a problem.

It's, as always, a spectrum, and single elements from one thing can belong to the other. Where is it written, that categories have to absolute? Axis & Allies can be seen as a a ultra-light wargame, but what is Risk then? Reality is nuanced, no matter what others will try to make you believe.

The history of the hobby has it, that people overlap. Thematic gaming is different from Thematic games. Clearly Feng Shui lend itself to thematic gaming, as as early as the days of OD&D there were people with a thematic itch, who desperately tried to scratch it. So some developed games for that, some only included elements. Lots and lots of hybrids developed thusly. It is now, in our enlightened days, that people have better tools for scratching their itches, be they what they may.

Quote from: jhkimHm.  I don't find any problem with Dogs being deceptive as a game.  I think it's pretty clear from the point of dealing with initiation in character creation what the game is like.

Well, first, we don't have to stick hard & fast to Settembrini's definitions (2nd post in this thread). I admit that I'm talking more about immersive exploration of a setting than I am about the details of challenge and whatnot that he brought up. But the general issue of "colonization" or "infiltration" as the Pundit puts it is one of denying others the ability to interpret their own experiences. Often it starts with "what you really mean is..."

Really this thing goes back before the Forge to discussion of "storytelling games" and through all the arguments that led to the Threefold.

Quote from: SettembriniThe history of the hobby has it, that people overlap. Thematic gaming is different from Thematic games. Clearly Feng Shui lend itself to thematic gaming, as as early as the days of OD&D there were people with a thematic itch, who desperately tried to scratch it. So some developed games for that, some only included elements. Lots and lots of hybrids developed thusly.

Well, I'm not even sure what the dimensions of your terms are.  I roughly understand "Adventure Game" to be about how close something is to the archetype of adventure: namely exotic locales, heroic characters, and emphasis on challenges.  

I'm not sure what "Thematic Games" applies to, though.  You apply it to Feng Shui.  What about Toon and/or Teenagers from Outer Space?  Paranoia?  Pendragon?  These are thematic in a sense, but I'm not sure what your criteria is.

QuoteI'm not sure what "Thematic Games" applies to, though. You apply it to Feng Shui. What about Toon and/or Teenagers from Outer Space? Paranoia? Pendragon? These are thematic in a sense, but I'm not sure what your criteria is.

They are all adventure games by tradition, with thematic elements in them. But they follow the Adventure Game setup. Thematic Game is a design category not a play category.
I can have thematic play with a Pizza, if needed.

Quote from: SettembriniThey are all adventure games by tradition, with thematic elements in them. But they follow the Adventure Game setup. Thematic Game is a design category not a play category.
I can have thematic play with a Pizza, if needed.

So, you're saying that there are games that are thematic without being "Thematic Games".  And do I also read the implication that there are games which emulate the tropes of adventure fiction without being "Adventure Games"?  (i.e. perhaps non-traditional games like Theatrix or The Mountain Witch)  

I understand that you think that many Forge-related games are "Thematic Games", but I'm not sure what the quality about them is that you're distinguishing.

Maybe we could make a distinction between Adventure games and Eliza games.

As in, these games are like Adventure, and those games are like Eliza.