All this talk about theory and what makes for a successful RPG is fine but rather meaningless if no one is stocking RPGs. Something has happened. I'm not sure what. But I've noticed over the years that RPGs, specifically the pencil and paper variety, are getting increasingly harder to find in brick & mortar stores.
Why is this?
More importantly what can we do about it?
Example #1: The Mall Kiosk
There used to be a kiosk in the middle of a local mall that sold games, specifically board games. About 60-75% of their stock was niche variants of MONOPOLY. I actually stopped to talk to the guy running the kiosk and asked him about this. In a round about way he admit that sales were infrequent but, over all, the monopoly game was a steady seller.
When querried about special orders his face lit up and asked me what I was looking for.
"What about role-playing games?" said I.
Dumbfounded stare as he goes to his lap top, "Not sure we have many of those."
Long story short he had no real clue what RPGs were. Didn't know they came in book form. Best I could do was send him to RPGnet at the time. No idea what happened to the guy as his kiosk disappeared within a month. But before his kiosk vanished I noticed that he'd at least begun to stock some Axis & Allies stuff and a few other items we'd discussed. Still most of his stock was Monopoly games or "family friendly" board game fare. Not exactly big sellers.
But the guy wasn't even aware of RPGs, not even the board game variants, they were totally off this seller's radar. That's a bad sign.
Example #2: The Retail Bookstore
I've noticed most of the retail bookstores I go to have next to nothing in the way of RPGs or, worse, when they do have a RPG section it's small and contains a couple dozen D&D/D20 sourcebooks. When I was a teen you could walk into a bookstore or *gasp* toy store and find not only product from TSR but also from Mayfair Games, Avalon Hill, and a handful of other companies.
What's changed?
Is it that role-playing designers have taken to writing MSS designed to be published as books? It does seem like, back in the day, when there were box sets these got stocked regularly. They were like the proverbial gateway drug. A retailer would stock a box set and almost have to then stock the supplements.
Alas, now, it seems like retailers look at RPGs as just another type of book and treat them accordingly. Which is to say like a pariah. A RPG in a box could be stocked in either a bookstore, the games section of a department store, or even the toy section. Which usually led to these stores stocking the "funny dice", which I haven't seen outside of hobby shops in ages.
I can't help but wonder if box sets are more likely to get stocked over books why aren't more boxed RPG game sets being produced?
It may be a chicken and egg thing, Kester, but RPG distributors sell to Game/hobby shops, not bookstores. Book distributors generally don't distribute games.
-clash
Many things damaged the "chain" and regular distro gaming side of the hobby
Distributors. There was a time when Random House distributed for TSR, most publishers accept returns. Gaming was a bit unique. TSR offered to do a one time return for some products--but they got bit by tons and tons of unsold crappy novels.
The distribution methods used by game companies were limited beyond TSR (and a few others), they also took a fair chunk of change just to put your books into a store. For something that sells madly, and is hugely popular you can piggy back a few more titles with it and make out decently. The problem was distributors work very specifically and those ways are unkind to the very barebones nature of game books.
Add to this that paper prices went up, and up, and up. Most game publishers do not print enough to get the discounts on paper and materials that large volumes tend to give.
Then on top of that, game consoles came out--and the games were highly visual, highly easy to drop in and play, and didn't take the effort of either board games or role-playing games, and we have a generation of parents who grew up with electronic media being a huge part of their lives.
Games went to better paper (since the price wasn't that much greater, except of course Palladium), and more visual styles to try and compete with the ease of newer mediums that entertained us (video games, better quality video tapes, then DVDs.) but the prices went up as well. Despite inflation mass market paperbacks and clothbound books managed to only inflate a tiny bit because of their mass volume. This is not true of comic books (who also had many of the issues of games)--their prices went up like games, paper got better, visuals are better simply because of better color processes--and the "price for inflation" plus "price for better materials" combined to make comics and games both less price accessible.
Of course the problem is that neither games nor comics understood that their appeal wasn't the paper, wasn't the color processes (or art for games) beyond a very few buyers.
Compare for example: Manga are most often black and white, come in big books that combine what would be the equivalents of several comic book issues, and many of them are read backwards (which is a barrier for many people who were trained to read right to left...) yet many manga "books" sell like hotcakes? Why? Because the writing speaks to the generation that is buying them, and the characters interest them--the characters aren't often 30+ years old with huge back stories you can't follow. (and I like comic books mind you) the characters are relatively fresh, and you can get a reasonably complete story, and sometimes several from (most) single manga volumes.
But comic books and games insist that breaking things across several books "makes sense" contrary to how badly other examples did. (Example: Stephen King's Green Mile, was considered at one point a disaster when they sold it chapter by chapter--it only didn't fail completely because King was a big enough name to barely hold it together.)
All these things combine to make games less interesting: The boxed model was good, but boxes got expensive, the fact that many boxed sets contained less than 200 pages of material was often good for beginners, but the game publishers (and many die hard fans) wanted "more, better" and because the industry catered to that, it lost its hold too some degree in chains and peoples interests/ease of accessibility,
Now these are just observations based on working in bookstores and being a gamer, and reading publisher reports and other bits....so it may be flawed, but that's how it looks to me.
Quote from: flyingmiceIt may be a chicken and egg thing, Kester, but RPG distributors sell to Game/hobby shops, not bookstores. Book distributors generally don't distribute games.
-clash
Sorta. Ingrams (common distributor for special orders for Waldenbooks and Borders, and Barnes&Nobles/Bdaltons) carried a few games, not just Random House Derived TSR either.
Great post Silverlion!
flyingmice, you're right, up to a point. While RPGs are technically classified as "games" I have been in several stores that sell games, usually in the posh malls whose primary target consumer are tourtists, that have said, bluntly, that they do NOT stock books when asked about RPGs.
IOW: Treating RPGs like games, yet publishing them as books, is a major hindrance to their getting stocked.
Best I can figure, based on past discussions, is the proprietors dislike the RPG model of selling the game in pieces, or rather book by book. In addition to which they have to worry about stocking speciality dice and etcetera.
I know many will want to use CCGs as an example of how selling a game piecemeal works, but it's a totally different type of game. Not to mention there's a vast difference between stocking a box containing, say, 100 units, and stocking one book that may cost that exact same per unit (book)!
Quote from: SilverlionSorta. Ingrams (common distributor for special orders for Waldenbooks and Borders, and Barnes&Nobles/Bdaltons) carried a few games, not just Random House Derived TSR either.
I know, Tim. Ingrams distributes StarCluster 2. They don't get it into B&N or Waldenbooks, but you can order it online. That's where I learned about the distro system. :D
-clash
Quote from: Kester PelagiusGreat post Silverlion!
flyingmice, you're right, up to a point. While RPGs are technically classified as "games" I have been in several stores that sell games, usually in the posh malls whose primary target consumer are tourtists, that have said, bluntly, that they do NOT stock books when asked about RPGs.
IOW: Treating RPGs like games, yet publishing them as books, is a major hindrance to their getting stocked.
Best I can figure, based on past discussions, is the proprietors dislike the RPG model of selling the game in pieces, or rather book by book. In addition to which they have to worry about stocking speciality dice and etcetera.
I know many will want to use CCGs as an example of how selling a game piecemeal works, but it's a totally different type of game. Not to mention there's a vast difference between stocking a box containing, say, 100 units, and stocking one book that may cost that exact same per unit (book)!
I agree there, Kester, but the initial expense of creating boxed sets is too big a hinderance to anyone but WotC and a couple other games publishers making them. Chicken and egg again.
-clash
Quote from: flyingmiceI agree there, Kester, but the initial expense of creating boxed sets is too big a hinderance to anyone but WotC and a couple other games publishers making them. Chicken and egg again.
I hear you. It takes money to make money, but there has to be some alternative. Perhaps using stock boxes without having them custom made, gluing a printed custom cover on them, or something?
Quote from: Kester PelagiusWhy is this?
First, the nature of the hobby business and traditional distribution channel makes it a low profit business that puts all of the risk on retailers (they have to essentially buy their stock and hopes it sells -- they can't return unsold merchandise the way book stores do). Oh, and they have to compete with bookstores that can return stock for the most popular lines like D&D and WW.
Second, role-players seem reluctant to spend a lot of money on their hobby. They buy online at a discount instead of at a brick and mortar shop. They download bootlegs. They let the GM buy all the books and don't buy books as players. And then there is all the moaning when a core rulebook costs $30 or $40 because they used to cost $12 back in the day (I'm reminded of my grandmother talking about loaves of bread for a nickel).
Third, the customer base is relatively small and doesn't need to buy regularly.
If you want to encourage brick-and-mortar game stores, you need to encourage role-players to part with enough money to make it profitable or you need to convince game publishers to take on more of the risk by allowing returns on unsold product.
So, praytell, aren´t pre-painted miniatures one nifty idea to fight all those structural problems?
I work at Borders, D&D Books and other RPGs are classified as Sci-Fi/Fantasy Fiction. Our file system for them has them all over the place (for example, the author of the book is sometimes D&D and sometimes the first author alphabetically or sometimes Monte Cooke-even if he had nothing to do with the book).
I think if retailers were educated on them, they would sell more. But it's a niche/hobby product. So really it's up to the fanbases to introduce people to the hobby themsleves and try to create a demand.
I think the first decade the became popular because it was new, it was fresh (good word SilverLion) and it was exciting. Now, we have things like GNS and other codeified terms (System, fluff, exploding dice etc.) to make it innaccessible and boring.
It's also got a horrible (HORRIBLE!) Social-Stigma. Roleplaying is for LOSERS. Whether they're nerdy-geeks (a la your D&D stereotype), frail waif like pansies (Your WW player stereotype), or unsocial, unwashed pixel bitches (GURPS anyone?); Roleplaying just has a negative stereotype (I think Pundy has taked about this at length, lawncrappers and catpissmen and whatever).
I think all we can do about it is invite people to play.
Over and over again I read online "Waaaagh, there's no gamers where I live and I want to play Exalted...Waaaaaagh!".
Well, you don't need gamers, all you need is friends ( or really, interested aquaintences).
This is getting really rambly/ranty
To fix the problem of low sales all we have to do is get new/more people interested.
Ideas:
* Invite local WoW Guildmates over to play a roleplaying game.
* Buy a friend a roleplaying book as a present,
* Invite co-workers over to play a Role-Playing game
* Run an RPG in your local chain-bookstore, when people ask about it, invite them to play.
* Leave your current, long-time role-playing group and start a new one.
See the trend, if we want to expand the hobby, we have to expand the hobby. Don't let RPG's end up like Lionel Trains:)
Full supportive fire from my position!
Quote from: SettembriniSo, praytell, aren´t pre-painted miniatures one nifty idea to fight all those structural problems?
For RPG's? No.
Wargames--yes.
The difference is subtle and yet also discreet.
Mini have issues with being fixed figures for games where the imagination is often the only limit (ok..and genre) who wants a yet another elf with bow when they can be an elf with a giant two handed sword? (and yet Elves are always given BOWS for many mini lines)
It hits the "I can do anything" on the head, and that's a problem because that's a tabletop RPG's strength.
Quote from: SilverlionFor RPG's? No.
Wargames--yes.
The difference is subtle and yet also discreet.
Mini have issues with being fixed figures for games where the imagination is often the only limit (ok..and genre) who wants a yet another elf with bow when they can be an elf with a giant two handed sword? (and yet Elves are always given BOWS for many mini lines)
It hits the "I can do anything" on the head, and that's a problem because that's a tabletop RPG's strength.
One day we'll probably have holographic gaming tables with holographic animated mini's to replace our lead ones. But, until someone invents that table we can sit atperhaps the initial step will be RPG corebooks that come with a PC/Video game?
Somewhere in my library I have a couple Krondor novels that came with the PC game. Never used it. But it made me wonder why no one had thought to bundle a introductory level game with a core rule book.
What would the future of RPGs be like if you could buy a rulebook that came with a game you could put into your game console to begin playing with? You'd literally be able to learn the game as you played AND have the rules so you could run your own games with your friends.
I know this could work as I knew a few gamers, way back when, that actually got their start in gaming playing AD&D gold box games on the C=64!
Quote from: Kester PelagiusAll this talk about theory and what makes for a successful RPG is fine but rather meaningless if no one is stocking RPGs. Something has happened. I'm not sure what. But I've noticed over the years that RPGs, specifically the pencil and paper variety, are getting increasingly harder to find in brick & mortar stores.
Mate, take your "roleplaying is dying" doom-saying shit away from here, it doesn't belong here. Where does it belong? Forge or rpg.net, maybe.
Quote from: KrakaJakIt's also got a horrible (HORRIBLE!) Social-Stigma. Roleplaying is for LOSERS.
So is pr0n, but that sells extremely well. The difference is that a majority of people are interested in sex; but only a minority of people are interested in pretending to be elves. Same as with golf or model trainsets - people just plain ain't interested. They like other stuff instead.
The future of pen and paper rpgs is as rosey or dim as it ever was. I was first told roleplaying was dying about 1983, when I'd bought a copy of Advanced D&D to complement my Basic D&D; when I read it I realised it was actually a new game. The guy who'd introduced me to Basic assured me that the release of Advanced D&D meant that roleplaying would die, because they were just ripping everyone off, and everyone would realise this and stop gaming.
Then there were the collapse of TSR, magic cards, computer games, White Wolf, pdfs and piracy, et cetera et cetera ad nauseum. And yet here we are. It's bullshit.
Take that shit back to rpg.net or the Forge where it belongs.
Quote from: JimBobOzMate, take your "roleplaying is dying" doom-saying shit away from here, it doesn't belong here. Where does it belong? Forge or rpg.net, maybe.
Did you read the entire post?
This isn't a "roleplaying is dying" subject, it's a "how do we get retailers that aren't stocking RPGs to stock RPGs" subject.
P&P RPGS aren't dying. They just aren't popular amongst the angsty youth of America, who would rather cry about not hooking up with the hot blonde girl, rather than take their anger out on a horde of orcs that are raiding human settlements.
Don't diss our pimple faced counterparts, you know? We need them just as much as they need us, because in 10 years (once they get their lives together and realize how much smarter they are than the idiots who dropped out of high school or college) -- they will be the ones GM'ing games on the weekends.
Quote from: JimBobOzSo is pr0n, but that sells extremely well. The difference is that a majority of people are interested in sex; but only a minority of people are interested in pretending to be elves. Same as with golf or model trainsets - people just plain ain't interested. They like other stuff instead.
The future of pen and paper rpgs is as rosey or dim as it ever was. I was first told roleplaying was dying about 1983, when I'd bought a copy of Advanced D&D to complement my Basic D&D; when I read it I realised it was actually a new game. The guy who'd introduced me to Basic assured me that the release of Advanced D&D meant that roleplaying would die, because they were just ripping everyone off, and everyone would realise this and stop gaming.
Then there were the collapse of TSR, magic cards, computer games, White Wolf, pdfs and piracy, et cetera et cetera ad nauseum. And yet here we are. It's bullshit.
Porn sells incredibly well because everyone knows about it, Porn doesn't really have a negative social stigma here in the states (it's everyones dirty little secret, but it's everyones dirty little secret). Also it sells well because everybody knows about it.
As far as pretending t be elves goes. I think WoW's 7 Million subscribers says there is a large group of people who want to play games with elves that kill monsters.
And a slow decline is still a slow decline, every RPG company has reported the "current RPG slump". We just want to specuate on how to get out of it.
I also want to point out, this is THE place to go to cry about the industry dying. Whether it's Pundit talking about WW almost destroyed RPGS or High book costs almost destroyed RPGs or Sett telling us it's the Moral subtext of play that disinterests people in the hobby.
:)
On the other hand, while I certainly don't believe the RPG industry is *dying*, when was it ever a major success?
I mean, I wasn't exactly alive in the 1970's, but was D&D ever as popular as say, Super Mario Bros. ?
Quote from: KrakaJakI also want to point out, this is THE place to go to cry about the industry dying. Whether it's Pundit talking about WW almost destroyed RPGS or High book costs almost destroyed RPGs or Sett telling us it's the Moral subtext of play that disinterests people in the hobby.:)
That is an accurate representation of their points of view, but their views are not shared by a majority of posters here. We think they're crazy. RPGPundit is locked into saying crazy things because he's typecast himself and that gets a reaction, and lots of posts making nice big threads. And Settembrini is just Prussian, what do you expect.
Quote from: Kashell[...] was D&D ever as popular as say, Super Mario Bros?
Zigackly right!
Elvis memorabilia is a bigger industry than pen and paper roleplaying games. Sad but true.
Don't be too sad. I don't where it comes from, this crazy idea that the entire world should be interested in whatever our own hobby is. I mean, who cares? There are shitloads of gamers out there... like I said, by my own stupidity I imploded my game group, losing three out of four of the players last Tuesday. Tomorrow I'll have the remaining one, plus another, plus a guy new to roleplaying (but he likes fantasy novels and computer rpgs, and likes a beer with friends and a chat, so it's a good bet he'll enjoy roleplaying around a game table), so that's three - without my bothering to advertise the game*. And then next week a fourth is coming back from skiing in Canada, so we'll have a fourth.
If you're willing to GM a game, and are at all good at it, then unless you're lazy (won't go looknig for players), a loser (put players off) or extraordinarily unlucky (live in a town of 100 people), then you'll find plenty of players. Okay, they may not all be roleplaying geniuses, but they also won't be The Fish That John West Rejects, if you know what I mean.
But yeah, I know....
DOOM!Bollocks!
*I have actually advertised it, but only a few hours ago, and no responses yet.
Quote from: Kester PelagiusDid you read the entire post?
This isn't a "roleplaying is dying" subject, it's a "how do we get retailers that aren't stocking RPGs to stock RPGs" subject.
JimBob always responds with remarkable aggression to any post which, even tangentially, suggests that the rpg industry may be in trouble at all.
No idea why, every industry professional who comments says it is and I suspect they ain't all lying, but on this particular topic he always goes off the deep end.
Quote from: BalbinusJimBob always responds with remarkable aggression to any post which, even tangentially, suggests that the rpg industry may be in trouble at all.
I react with
scorn to
any deliberate absurdity. This is just something that comes up again and again and again over the years. Roleplaying has been dying for so long that I'm starting to think it's fucking immortal.
Quote from: BalbinusNo idea why, every industry professional who comments says it is and I suspect they ain't all lying, but on this particular topic he always goes off the deep end.
Almost every businessman says that his business is struggling. If that businessman is a writer or artist, they tend to whinge even more. The roleplaying industry just brings together two of the professions which have the loudest whingers - writers and artists. I talk to a lot of writers, all of them claim nobody's reading anymore. Fuck knows what all those books in Borders and K-Mart and a zillion little bookstores are, then. And artists - fuck, those guys have been whinging since Leonardo, probably before him, too.
You know what the future of pen and paper RPGs is?
That's right. Movies with dwarves with *really* fake red beards.
...and well, probably more P&P RPGs.
Quote from: Kashell...and well, probably more P&P RPGs.
My God ... it's so crazy it
just might work!
Quote from: KrakaJakI work at Borders, D&D Books and other RPGs are classified as Sci-Fi/Fantasy Fiction. Our file system for them has them all over the place (for example, the author of the book is sometimes D&D and sometimes the first author alphabetically or sometimes Monte Cooke-even if he had nothing to do with the book).
Really? Wierd. Everywhere big bookstore I can find in my local area has a dedicated RPGs section ... usually an entire rack of shelves loaded top to bottom. Barnes and Noble (multiple locations), Books-a-Million, Borders ... I think the only bookstore near me that
doesn't have a full rack of RPGs is the local non-chain bookshop, Olssons. They're more into full racks of funky unheard-of music (a prospect I also approve!)
Strange how the same chain can have such different behavior from branch to branch. Stranger still how
all the bookstores in my area can have the same (apparently atypical) behavior. I guess I'm just lucky!
WOW is the future of tabletop RPGs, if you're talking about anything above the fold. All of the fun, none of the work, and far more convenient. I get more bang for my buck from WOW than I do for any TRPG. Below the fold? That's a different answer, and the answer is still "D&D, now and forever."
Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerWOW is the future of tabletop RPGs
Except for the tabletop part... ;)
Quote from: TonyLBI guess I'm just lucky!
Yeah, Tony, you are. :brood: My local Borders/barnes & Noble situation (in Portland, OR) is a lot closer to Krakajak's description. And we've only one actual "hobby" store that I know of, which is basically a huge superstore of model trains and planes with one RPG aisle.
I guess there are some more dedicated hobby shops in other nearby towns, like Salem or Aloha, but that's about it. Several Portland comic shops do carry RPGs, but that's hardly their main focus. There's nowhere to go with, like gaming tables and regular activities and staff who actually know something about RPGs. Not that the placesI mentioned are bad places, just not really good for the RPG side of things.
As far as the :devil: DOOM :devil:, I dunno, it doesn't seem much different than when I was younger. It'd be
great if there was a dedicated RPG venue in P-town, and better (more varied) bookstore presence, or whatever. But we've
never really had that to my knowledge. That said, I didn't really read "Doom" into Kester's post.
Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerWOW is the future of tabletop RPGs, if you're talking about anything above the fold. All of the fun, none of the work, and far more convenient. I get more bang for my buck from WOW than I do for any TRPG. Below the fold? That's a different answer, and the answer is still "D&D, now and forever."
I have no idea what the hell you just said. What does "above the fold" mean? :confused:
Peace,
-Joel
Quote from: MelinglorI have no idea what the hell you just said. What does "above the fold" mean? :confused:
"The fold" is newspaper jargon that refers to daily newspapers that are folded in half before stacking for delivery to distribution outlets. The top half of a page is above the fold, and that's where the big stories--the ones that the editors deem to matter most--go, and this translates into visibility amongst the population. The rest is below the fold, with the opposite results much of the time. (To be clear, this is often specific to the front page of the main section--what you see on the stands--though it's applicable to the front of every section.)
Applied generally, as I did above, "the fold" is the line of demarcation that splits a field between that which is within the perception of the population and what is not. That which is above the fold is easily found, enough that you need only be passively aware to know of it to any useful degree; what's below the fold takes active effort to seek out, learn about and become familiar with because it's not within mainstream society's field of view.
Just for the record, I'm not part of the "RPGs are dying" crowd. I'm of the opinion that White Wolf and TSR combined (WW's story-based gaming and TSR's intellectual bankruptcy) to do incredible harm to the hobby, and that we lost a huge part of an entire generation (there are literally millions of people who today should be gamers, that never were), but the hobby TODAY is not in danger of dying out.
RPGPundit
Quote from: KrakaJakIt's also got a horrible (HORRIBLE!) Social-Stigma. Roleplaying is for LOSERS. Whether they're nerdy-geeks (a la your D&D stereotype), frail waif like pansies (Your WW player stereotype), or unsocial, unwashed pixel bitches (GURPS anyone?); Roleplaying just has a negative stereotype (I think Pundy has taked about this at length, lawncrappers and catpissmen and whatever).
_-___-_-_--_--__--__-__-___--__-___-___---__------___---__--__-___
What??!!
Maybe in your part of the country. Here, in this area the people I see that are interested in RPGs are fairly normal looking and don't have that "Geek social stigma" thing going on. We get a lot of married couples and dating couples shopping at our ghame store for RPG stuff. Our regular frequent customers are a pretty normal bunch.
I have seen some in the gaming hobby that seem to hate themselves or their aquaintances. Its like an odd self-loathing phenomena or they feel they have to be embarassed about something.
Future of P&P role playing games? Pretty good I think.
Even if the world goes to hell and all of our machines go boom!, crash & bust on us - the idea of making up pretend adventures and using pencil and paper to keep track of them will survive. Its just too damn fun not to.
- E.W.C.
QuoteYeah, Tony, you are. My local Borders/barnes & Noble situation (in Portland, OR) is a lot closer to Krakajak's description. And we've only one actual "hobby" store that I know of, which is basically a huge superstore of model trains and planes with one RPG aisle.
Of the top of my head, I only know of Bridgetown, since Fine Games has moved, but across the river in Vancouver you've got Amazing Stories on 4th Plain, which has the best damn selection of RPGs I've ever seen. The Waldenbooks in the Van Mall used to have a really great selection back when JenniferY was still working there, but I suspect it's gone down hill since she left.
Portland's got it's own con though, and a decent one at that: http://www.gamestorm.org/
You might also ask about on the Yahoo pdx-gamers group, as some folks might know of some more good places to get your gaming fix: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pdx-gamers/
Quote from: KoltarEven if the world goes to hell and all of our machines go boom!, crash & bust on us - the idea of making up pretend adventures and using pencil and paper to keep track of them will survive.
Perky Pat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Days_of_Perky_Pat) will live on, then?
That whole "social stigma" in the sense of CPMs and basement dwellers seems to be yet another one of those cultural things that apparently don't exist around here... At worst roleplaying might be seen as a tad childish (and your average man on the street will associate it with LARP and teenagers dressed as elves scampering in the woods), but then again there'll are always folks who would say that about most games.
Out of curiosity, why aren't RPGs sold in toy shops? I'd expect them to be in hug warehous places like Toys'R'Us. You don't see HeroClix or D&D Minis in thos eplaces, either, but there are strange knock-off things based around Marvel characters. EDIT: Plus Bionicles which is also a figure-based game (I think - I'm too old and my kids are too young to really know).
Hamleys in London carried D&D (and nothing else) before 3.x, but now, nothing. This REALLY surprises me.
Ned
Quote from: Ned the Lonely DonkeyOut of curiosity, why aren't RPGs sold in toy shops? I'd expect them to be in hug warehous places like Toys'R'Us. You don't see HeroClix or D&D Minis in thos eplaces, either, but there are strange knock-off things based around Marvel characters. EDIT: Plus Bionicles which is also a figure-based game (I think - I'm too old and my kids are too young to really know).
Hamleys in London carried D&D (and nothing else) before 3.x, but now, nothing. This REALLY surprises me.
Ned
Ned,
Again that may be a regional difference. In this part of Ohio I have seen Heroclix in BOTH
Target and
TOys'R Us. NEVER
D&D or other roleplaying games. With some of those stores D&D still has that stigma left over from the 80s because of annoying extreme religious groups. Those stores don't want complaints.
-E.W.C.
Yeah, I'm in the UK, so there are likely to be regional differences: Toy R Us on The Old Kent Road (London) doesn't have 'em. Also, perhaps Heroclix don't have comprehensive retail distribution in the UK. In Hamelys they had a small stack of 2nd ed stuff up to about 1999, but now nothing. (Actually I should double check this - we never get past the Thomas the Tank Engine section these days...)
Ned