Quote from: TonyLBIs this an invitation for us to, likewise, write up our excitement about what we think "it's all about"?  Or are you most interested in exploring the vision you set forth?

Tony, note he says that rpgs which ignore this vision are doomed to failure, the point being made is that rpgs at their best are about adventure in the sense most of us would mean by that word.  Other rpgs are possible dealing with things other than adventure, but they will not be successful.

Mythusmage, please correct me if I've misunderstood.

Assuming I'm correct in interpreting his post, what you think it is about may well be of interest, but if it's different to that then rpgs about what you think it's about will be failures.

Depending on how we measure success, I broadly agree with him, in terms of widespread adoption only rpgs about adventure will I think have much success.  In terms of covering costs, a much wider range of rpgs will be successful.  In terms of artistic merit, buggered if I know, I'm not qualified to judge.

Quote from: mythusmageTell me now, how were the experiences you recounted above not part of an adventure? Have you ever thought of how much what happens in a shopping expedition resembles what happens in an adventure? Identifying the goal, the journey to the site, the exploration, the many false leads, the finding of the treasure and the payment of the cost.

Uh ... the shopping expedition was your example.  I was talking about people going down to the skate-park, or worrying about what the new kid will think of them.

Quote from: mythusmageEven more important, how frequent were those not-adventures? Were they any where near as frequent as the adventures? Did they take place as part of an adventure?

I'm actually talking about one-shots ... so the things I have described were the entirety of the game (indeed, the entirety of the campaign) and there wasn't anything else.

Quote from: mythusmageNow for something you seem to be overlooking, people can be wrong. Not everybody understands their motivation for doing something. Often it's because they really don't know.

For instance, you might believe that your motivation for saying that was to point out the truth of your theory, but be wrong.  It could be that your motivation was actually to try to salvage a theory that's clearly nothing more than your personal preferences hyped up with a lot of empty rhetoric, so that you wouldn't have to suck it up and admit that you're wrong and have been since post number one.

You're right, people can be wrong ... but do you really think that your best guess at my motivations should bear more weight than my knowledge of myself?

Quote from: BalbinusDepending on how we measure success, I broadly agree with him, in terms of widespread adoption only rpgs about adventure will I think have much success.  In terms of covering costs, a much wider range of rpgs will be successful.  In terms of artistic merit, buggered if I know, I'm not qualified to judge.

Oh, see I was assuming (from the way he talked about player motivation and satisfying play) that he meant that a game without "adventure" would fail to provide entertaining play.  Maybe Mythusmage will elaborate on what he meant by saying that the games would fail.

Quote from: TonyLBOh, see I was assuming (from the way he talked about player motivation and satisfying play) that he meant that a game without "adventure" would fail to provide entertaining play.  Maybe Mythusmage will elaborate on what he meant by saying that the games would fail.

Perhaps, I'll start a spin-off thread on my interpretation.  Please feel free to shoot it down

Okay, a shopping trip isn't necessarily an adventure, but it can be part of an adventure. It all depends on how you approach it. But, consider what the typical session consists of. For all intents and purposes, the same sort of thing you read about in adventure stories. Pick most any RPG out in a store and after reading through it you'll learn that it's about going forth, journeying, and finding things. With people to meet, villains to beat, and goodies to collect. Adventure.

To quote from West Side Story: Smoke on your pipe and put that in.

Expect a new thread on the importance of adventure in RPG design.

Quote from: mythusmageBut, consider what the typical session consists of. For all intents and purposes, the same sort of thing you read about in adventure stories.

You keep saying that ... despite the fact that other people (e.g. me) have been telling you that their sessions don't necessarily consist of the same thing.

Quote from: TonyLBYou keep saying that ... despite the fact that other people (e.g. me) have been telling you that their sessions don't necessarily consist of the same thing.

Could it be because you aren't thinking of what you do as adventuring? Or that you are focusing on what occurs during the adventure?

Quote from: mythusmageCould it be because you aren't thinking of what you do as adventuring?

Yes, mythusmage, it is entirely possible that we're disagreeing with you because we believe that you're wrong.

:lol:

Quote from: TonyLBYou keep saying that ... despite the fact that other people (e.g. me) have been telling you that their sessions don't necessarily consist of the same thing.

I think he meant typical as in typical across the hobby, which presumably would be D&D.  Typical as in the typical gaming experience, not typical as in the typical gaming experience of a particular group.

Those are very different things, that said this whole thread suffers from a certain lack of clarity.

I think there is a typical gaming experience, I also think that a typical session for me is not necessarily that typical generally.  Both can be true.

Quote from: BalbinusI think he meant typical as in typical across the hobby, which presumably would be D&D.  Typical as in the typical gaming experience, not typical as in the typical gaming experience of a particular group.

Those are very different things, that said this whole thread suffers from a certain lack of clarity.

Probably. But I'm think that Mythus, does not really want to dicuss the issues whatever they may be. He refuses to acknowledge anyone else's experience and has obviously reached a conclusion about this topic by taking into account the most important view....his own.

Regards,
David R

Sorry people, but you aint gonna guilt me into a concession.

You ever consider the possibility I could be right? That you are participating in an adventure each time you play? That all your objections and nit-picking are so you don't have to admit you do anything so unseemly as adventuring?

Many years ago I read a book, ostensibly on raven behavior in the American Northeast, but as much on scientific observation as anything else. The author thought a winter's observation would do the trick. No such luck. Over the years he spent collecting data he learned things about raven behavior no one had ever observed before.

I've observed gamer behavior for years now, both off and on-line. It's all about the adventure. Socializing plays a role, but at the heart it's the adventure. Explore new worlds, learn new things, collect new swag. Observe your fellow players at your next adventure, see what they do, how they behave. Watch over a period of time, what keeps them interested, what keeps them engaged. Learn why they game from what they do instead of what they say.

mythusmage, the only way you can be right is if you redefine the word adventure to make it mean something akin to "the stuff you do when you roleplay." There have been several people giving examples already of things that aren't adventures in the typical sense of the word. Either you redefine the word, you say that what they're doing isn't true gaming, or you abandon the theory.

I personally prefer adventure to mean only those things that are adventurous, so I'll go with option #1.

Quote from: mythusmageYou ever consider the possibility I could be right? That you are participating in an adventure each time you play? That all your objections and nit-picking are so you don't have to admit you do anything so unseemly as adventuring?

You're attacking on (at least) two different fronts here:

• Maybe the things we don't think of as adventures actually are ... maybe sitting around in the parking lot of the Gas'n'Sip is actually an adventure, and we just don't realize it.
  
• Maybe we have some ulterior motive for not wanting to subscribe to the term "adventure."

Your first argument is semantic:  You're expanding the definition of the term way beyond the common usage, and also well beyond the usage you gave it in your earlier posts.  At this point is there any type of story wherein events occur that you wouldn't typify as an "adventure"?

The second argument is ad hominem, plain and simple.  You're not calling anyone's arguments into doubt, you're calling their motives for making the arguments into doubt.

Both arguments are weak, weak sauce.

Quote from: mythusmageI've observed gamer behavior for years now, both off and on-line. It's all about the adventure.

This is a very poorly thought out tack for you to take, Alan.  You're appealing to your authority as having observed gamer behavior.  That really only strengthens your argument if that authority sets you apart from the other people in the discussion.  Do you honestly think that you're talking to people who haven't spent years observing gamer behavior?  Guess again.

To quote an applicable exchange from Alladin:  "Look out!  He's got a sword!"  "You idiot!  We've ALL got swords!"

We've all observed gamers.  Some of us have observations that don't mesh with your theory.

Adventure is fun.  And if you want to play a game that is all about adventure, more power to you.  If you want to spend a lifetime playing games that are all about adventure, more power to you.  That sounds like a very good thing.

But it's not the only way to play.  People are telling you left, right and center their experiences with playing in different ways.  Rather than saying "Oh!  Wow!  That's a type of play I've never encountered.  I suppose I'd better expand my view of what's possible," you are digging in your heels and arguing "No!  I have a THEORY, and my theory is more important than the facts!  A little semantic jiggery-pokery, a little casting aspersions on people's motives, and my precious theory will triumph over the naysayers!"

Pack it in, mate.  You're done.