Quote from: StuartThe Hero's Journey, by Joseph Campbell is often on the syllabus for screenwriting programs.

Basically -- Journey = Adventure = Story

Hmm..I don't know if Campbell's Hero's Journey accurately reflects what I mean by Journey. I'd use Character's Journey only because it seems to me, more...I don't know....okay, it feels right. Then again, I'm using Mythus's adventure, only because it's convenient

Regards,
David R

I mention that because a lot of writers talk about a "character's journey".

Quote from: David ROkay, thought about this a little more. I think adventures is too vague a term and doesn't really reflect the spirit of why we and by this I mean my players play rpgs. I think a more appropiate word is Journey.

Okay, what do I mean by this? As I mentioned earlier, my players play rpgs (or so the consensus around the gaming table seems to be) because they like playing a role and interacting with others who are also playing roles.

But RPGs are so much more than playing a role and interacting with other players. For some folks, it's about the Journey, their characters take. Say, you start of as a brash young pilot but evolve into a knight who saves the galaxy, discovering things about yourself along the way.

The Journey from point A to B is what's it's all about. Sure they have adventures along the way - and depending on the kind of game, adventures could be as thrilling as stopping the Dark Lord or as banal as discovering something about your spouse that you did not know - but the core as you put, is about the Journey.

Do you get where I'm coming from?

Regards,
David R

But, what are you doing when you play an RPG? You're having an adventure. The journey is part of the adventure. As is the socializing, the bling collection, the moral quandries. All part of the grand foray into danger and possible fame.

Quote from: mythusmageBut, what are you doing when you play an RPG?

Playing a role?

QuoteYou're having an adventure.

Your character maybe having an adventure -and I'm using the word adventure with some reservation, but what motivates you as a player could be a variety of things.

QuoteThe journey is part of the adventure. As is the socializing, the bling collection, the moral quandries. All part of the grand foray into danger and possible fame.

I don't know Mythus, is this about semantics. I mean, you seem to think that every RPG experience can be reduced to players wanting adventure or, that adventure is a sufficent term to describe nearly every possible situation - I don't think this is the case

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RPlaying a role?



Your character maybe having an adventure -and I'm using the word adventure with some reservation, but what motivates you as a player could be a variety of things.



I don't know Mythus, is this about semantics. I mean, you seem to think that every RPG experience can be reduced to players wanting adventure or, that adventure is a sufficent term to describe nearly every possible situation - I don't think this is the case

Regards,
David R

The problem I see here is that you want to complicate things when they don't need to be. Sometimes the motivation is that simple. You, through your character, have an adventure. You travel, you see strange things, you win rewards and fame. All part of the adventure. During the adventure you, as your character, can see and do all sorts of things, but it's all part of the adventure.

An RPG doesn't need to be anything more. It can explore all sorts of issues, and still be nothing less than a chance to adventure.

Quote from: mythusmageThe problem I see here is that you want to complicate things when they don't need to be. Sometimes the motivation is that simple. You, through your character, have an adventure.

There's nothing complicated about it. You assume, that the motivation is only for adventure. I posted based on experience that it could be something other than adventure.

QuoteYou travel, you see strange things, you win rewards and fame. All part of the adventure. During the adventure you, as your character, can see and do all sorts of things, but it's all part of the adventure.

I'm assuming you mean, even if the game does not involve the characters travelling, seeing strange things, winning awards and fame, you still define it as adventure, right?

QuoteAn RPG doesn't need to be anything more. It can explore all sorts of issues, and still be nothing less than a chance to adventure.

An RPG can be more than just an adventure, but at the end of the day, it's still a game.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: mythusmageIt's all about the adventure. It's about going forth, exploring strange lands, solving ancient mysteries, and collecting cartloads of bling. Any RPG that ignores this is doomed to failure.

Which of course explains how horribly World of Darkness has performed over the years. Not enough bling!

An adventure is what occurs while you are busy doing something else?

No, man, It's all about the characters.  Adventures just give people reasons to have cool characters doing cool stuff.   Nobody wants to hear about Generic Joe going to kill a dragon.  They want to hear about Joe, a poor farmboy who bucked up, grabbed the family pitchfork and bravely went where brave knights feared to tread to slay the dragon...who was maruading and burning down the family farm.

Generic Joe could be anyboy. Joe Farmboy was SOMEBODY, and as a consequence his adventure had meaning.


You see it in movies. People pay good money to see crap sequels because they are already invested in the CHARACTERS.  Or the Actors, who are often characters in their own rights.  Does having seen Yojimbo mean I don't need to see 'A Fist Full of Dollars'? Hardly!  It's not the adventure, it's the freakin' Characters, man!

Okay, I'll get off m'box now.

mythusmage, I find your definition unexceptionable. But it's so broad that I wonder where it gets us. Are there any example of games that do not have 'adventures' in your sense?

As humans we have the remarkable ability to ascribe to numerous motivations for doing things. We do this with RPGs, crediting all sorts of reasons for participation. But, when you get right down to it, we play RPGs to take part in adventures. To do things and see things we otherwise wouldn't. And certainly wouldn't in real life in many cases.

It's the chance to experience things we normally wouldn't experience. Very often things we could never experience. Other motivations can play a role, but without the adventure why take part in an RPG?

The adventure forms the foundation for all the rest. Politics, treasure hunting, romance can all be foundations for adventure. Exploration, breakups, shopping can all be part of an adventure.

Have you ever played an RPG where it didn't involve an adventure? Have you ever played a game where nothing adventurous happened? Have you ever played an RPG not designed for adventures? That's what RPGs are designed for, and should the players not get an adventure they'll let you know about it.
Even Cats from Wicked Dead Press involves adventuring. In this safe and staid world of ours we get bored, we need a little excitement every now and then. For those of us in the RPG hobby the adventures we have in game provide that excitement.

Would it really be the same if all you did was socialize?

Quote from: mythusmageHave you ever played an RPG where it didn't involve an adventure? Have you ever played a game where nothing adventurous happened?

Yes, on both counts.  I've played games where the biggest journey was down to the local skate park.  I've played games where the biggest threat was that the new kid at school might think you're a dweeb.  They were fun games.

Quote from: mythusmageAs humans we have the remarkable ability to ascribe to numerous motivations for doing things. We do this with RPGs, crediting all sorts of reasons for participation. But, when you get right down to it, we play RPGs to take part in adventures. To do things and see things we otherwise wouldn't. And certainly wouldn't in real life in many cases.

So in other words, when we talk about our experiences, you disregard them because you know what's really behind the motivation for all play...we're just...wait for it...brain damaged

Quote.... but without the adventure why take part in an RPG?

The enjoyment that comes from playing a character ?

QuoteThe adventure forms the foundation for all the rest. Politics, treasure hunting, romance can all be foundations for adventure. Exploration, breakups, shopping can all be part of an adventure.

There's that word again...

QuoteHave you ever played an RPG where it didn't involve an adventure? Have you ever played a game where nothing adventurous happened? Have you ever played an RPG not designed for adventures? That's what RPGs are designed for, and should the players not get an adventure they'll let you know about it.

Yup, that's the whole point of this discussion, right?

QuoteWould it really be the same if all you did was socialize?

I think so.

Regards,
David R

I think those two experiences match his definition of Adventure, unless I'm overestimating it's broadness. He included shopping trips as adventures though, so I don't think I'm too far off the mark.

Tell me now, how were the experiences you recounted above not part of an adventure? Have you ever thought of how much what happens in a shopping expedition resembles what happens in an adventure? Identifying the goal, the journey to the site, the exploration, the many false leads, the finding of the treasure and the payment of the cost.

Even more important, how frequent were those not-adventures? Were they any where near as frequent as the adventures? Did they take place as part of an adventure?

Now for something you seem to be overlooking, people can be wrong. Not everybody understands their motivation for doing something. Often it's because they really don't know. Having adventures is not something we do as part of daily life, and we do tend to separate our characters from ourselves. So we don't realize that it is us having those adventures, as our characters. Our PCs act as our surrogates, but when you get right down to it, we are the ones spiking open that door and rifling through the chests. We are the ones confronting that town mayor about his trafficking in things of darkness. To paraphrase Pogo Possum, "We have met the adventurer, and he is us."

Last but not least, what is wrong with having adventures?

Quote from: mythusmageTell me now, how were the experiences you recounted above not part of an adventure? Have you ever thought of how much what happens in a shopping expedition resembles what happens in an adventure? Identifying the goal, the journey to the site, the exploration, the many false leads, the finding of the treasure and the payment of the cost.

I like the way, you managed to link shopping expedition with adventure So, you consider going and buying a pack of smokes an adventure?

QuoteEven more important, how frequent were those not-adventures? Were they any where near as frequent as the adventures? Did they take place as part of an adventure?

A couple of folks talking about their lives during a smoke break is adventure? Don't get me wrong, if you are going to lump every situation as adventure...I'm cool with that, sort off. Like I said at least you're inclusive.

To answer, your question yeah, those non-adventures were precisely the point of the whole game...it may sound boring to some (my example: the players were a group of high school teachers, deciding whether to ban a particular student - okay, I'd just reaquainted myself with Lumet's 12 Angry Men....Gawd, this is sooo -ing)

QuoteNow for something you seem to be overlooking, people can be wrong. Not everybody understands their motivation for doing something. Often it's because they really don't know.

Okay, Mythus it's shit like this which gets some folks all worked up.

QuoteLast but not least, what is wrong with having adventures?

What's wrong with not having adventures? It's kind of like this. Indiana Jones has adventures. The kids from Stand By Me had an adventure. The high school kids from Brick had an adventure. But I wouldn't consider all films -games - and all situations as adventures. Can you dig it?

Regards,
David R