It's all about the adventure. It's about going forth, exploring strange lands, solving ancient mysteries, and collecting cartloads of bling. Any RPG that ignores this is doomed to failure.

The real difference between people is in how they go about adventuring. Why they adventure and what they do while adventuring. Difficulties arise when at least one person refuses to accept the fact the others don't accept his way of doing things as the only way of doing things.

You get right down to it, the first measure of any RPG is how well it facilitates adventure. How well it encourages taking risks and doing heroic things. If it fosters cautious play, then it is not encouraging adventuring.

RPGs are for the daring, or for those who'd like to be daring. It is not for those who need to be assured of an outcome, or, at the least, assured that they have some sort of "fair" chance. No, RPGs are really for those who are wiling to dare, to struggle against insurmountable odds and through wit, luck, and determination succeed when all else are certain the cause is doomed. Or die a glorious death, one or the other.

As one Rudyard Kipling once put it ...

You can talk of gin and beer
When you're quartered safe out here
And you're sent to pennyfights and aldershot it.

But when it comes to slaughter
You'll do you work on water
And you'll lick the bloomin' boots of him who's got it.

Is this an invitation for us to, likewise, write up our excitement about what we think "it's all about"?  Or are you most interested in exploring the vision you set forth?

Quote from: TonyLBIs this an invitation for us to, likewise, write up our excitement about what we think "it's all about"?  Or are you most interested in exploring the vision you set forth?

Pare the RPG down to the core. Toss system, mechanics, theory, style, and stance. Why do people play RPGs? At the very heart of the matter, what is the player's motivation?

To have adventures. To participate in activities you can't necessarily participate in in real life, everything else is just complications.

That's all RPGs are about, they're about the adventure. Even in a game such as Sorcerer or Dogs in the Vineyard it's the adventure that matter. The adventure can be comedic, it can be horrific, but it remains an adventure. And that's all RPGs have to be about.

DitV is about a particular type of adventure, good men and true out to battle evil. But it remains an adventure. A DitV style adventure need not occur in a mythical American West. It could happen in the frozen wastes of Siberia, with agents of the Czar hunting down anarchists and insurrectionists. It could even involve employees of a private detective agency seeking out lost souls caught up in destructive cults. What matters is not where it occurs, or who is involved, but in why it is happening. And the most basic question is, why are the players participating in this particular type of adventure? The answer is very simple, because they want to take part in an adventure, and this is the sort of adventure they want to take part in.

That, really, is the first step in game design. You answer the question, "What do you do?" Once you know what your game is about, you can go on to answer the second of the two questions all game designers must answer for their design to be successful, "How do you do it?"

For all RPGs the answer to the first question is always, to have adventures. It's when you start to answer the second that the answers can, and do, vary. But, any RPG designer who forgets it's all about the adventure is doomed to fail.

Could the breakup of a couple be an adventure in your sense?

Quote from: droogCould the breakup of a couple be an adventure in your sense?

Could be the basis for an adventure, though an unusual one. Why are they breaking up? Any hope of reconciliation? How is each taking the breakup? Is either posessive, vengeful, going insane?

A friend in Australia, Zoe Brain is going through a divorce from her wife of over 25 years because Zoe had what amounts to a spontaneous sex change (involves cholesterol medication). What complications could arise (the couple have a 5 year old boy)? How might others get involved? What or who could be acting to estrange the two and make what might be an amicable separation nasty?

In short, how do you take the basic scenario and turn it into an adventure?

Quote from: mythusmagePare the RPG down to the core. Toss system, mechanics, theory, style, and stance. Why do people play RPGs? At the very heart of the matter, what is the player's motivation?

To have adventures.

Dude ... you didn't answer my question.  I get what you find most exciting about RPGs.  I think that if you're saying that everybody finds the same thing exciting then you are, frankly, deluded.  But I get that you find it exciting, and that's cool.

My question is about the direction of the thread.  If other people find other things exciting and "core" do you want to hear about it, or should they (and I) just stay away?

I say a breakup isn't an adventure. It's a scenario.

Adventures are about characters going places and doing stuff. It has context and in involves moving (venturing) from one locale to the next.

Adventures contain multiple scenarios by default, and generally have some kind of transition from one scenario to the next.

Scenarios are just situations before anything happens. They can be exciting and awesome or they can be something lame like a breakup.

Now I'm not going to say that "what everyone wants are adventures" or anything, but I would bet more people want those by far.

I've been rereading the Temple of Elemental Evil lately. It starts out in the Village of Hommlet. What are you supposed to do there? Well you could buy and sell stuff, wander around town, run into NPCs, and hear about the moathouse or various other clues. It also has details like "The weaver is secretly in love with the woodcutter's wife" (seriously, this is pages 14-15)

The Village of Hommlet (with all of it's NPCs and it's details) is a scenario. It isn't until you leave that scene, and head to the moathouse, and fight the dragon in the courtyard that the adventure really begins.

Now, at the same time, let's say you start the game right at the point where the characters are entering the moathouse courtyard and bam, you have the dragon battle with Utreshimon right then. And then after the battle is over you end the game.

Was that an adventure? It had a dragon, right? I say no. It was just a scenario, since it had no context and nobody went anywhere.

On the other hand, what if you did the dragon battle, then you had the players explore the moathouse, and battle all the cultists in the dungeon below? I say yes, adventure., They were going from place to place doing stuff. Each room presents a different situation, and each situation is it's own scenario.

Ok, so what if during the breakup scenario, the two breakuppers wander from room to room in a house as they argue? Not an adventure. It's not like each room presents a different situation. Let's say the two breakuppers split up and one flies to a different country and they continue to argue over cell phones. Is it an adventure yet? Nope. Same situation. You just changed the backdrop.

Ok, so what if the breakup starts in one location and then a bad guy abducts one party, and the other guy has to figure out clues to find her? Each clue is a scenario. Thats an adventure.

What if they break up in a haunted house and each room has it's own unique situation? Thats probably an adventure.

Normal house? Not an adventure. It's not like the situation changes when they enter the kitchen or whatever.

I think the plot of most romantic comedy movies (eg. The Wedding Singer) could be considered "an adventure".  Classic literature too -- Wuthering Heights could be considered an adventure.  There's a lot more than just an argument, breakup, or two people falling in love there.  Those things might be scenes / situations within the story/adventure.

Quote from: mythusmageCould be the basis for an adventure, though an unusual one. Why are they breaking up? Any hope of reconciliation? How is each taking the breakup? Is either posessive, vengeful, going insane?
..............................
In short, how do you take the basic scenario and turn it into an adventure?

I'm thinking of Ron Edwards' game It Was a Mutual Decision, which runs in sections ('chapters'): Before, During and After. There's no possibility of reconciliation, so it's about how the characters act during the breakup.

The questions you raise in the first paragraph are pretty much what the game runs on. They would be answered differently by different groups of players.

Adventure? In a broad sense, I suppose.

Quote from: TonyLBDude ... you didn't answer my question.  I get what you find most exciting about RPGs.  I think that if you're saying that everybody finds the same thing exciting then you are, frankly, deluded.  But I get that you find it exciting, and that's cool.

My question is about the direction of the thread.  If other people find other things exciting and "core" do you want to hear about it, or should they (and I) just stay away?

Tony, learn to listen. I said it very plainly, it is not my fault you got confused.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI say a breakup isn't an adventure. It's a scenario.

Adventures are about characters going places and doing stuff. It has context and in involves moving (venturing) from one locale to the next.

Adventures contain multiple scenarios by default, and generally have some kind of transition from one scenario to the next.

Scenarios are just situations before anything happens. They can be exciting and awesome or they can be something lame like a breakup.

Now I'm not going to say that "what everyone wants are adventures" or anything, but I would bet more people want those by far.

I've been rereading the Temple of Elemental Evil lately. It starts out in the Village of Hommlet. What are you supposed to do there? Well you could buy and sell stuff, wander around town, run into NPCs, and hear about the moathouse or various other clues. It also has details like "The weaver is secretly in love with the woodcutter's wife" (seriously, this is pages 14-15)

The Village of Hommlet (with all of it's NPCs and it's details) is a scenario. It isn't until you leave that scene, and head to the moathouse, and fight the dragon in the courtyard that the adventure really begins.

Now, at the same time, let's say you start the game right at the point where the characters are entering the moathouse courtyard and bam, you have the dragon battle with Utreshimon right then. And then after the battle is over you end the game.

Was that an adventure? It had a dragon, right? I say no. It was just a scenario, since it had no context and nobody went anywhere.

On the other hand, what if you did the dragon battle, then you had the players explore the moathouse, and battle all the cultists in the dungeon below? I say yes, adventure., They were going from place to place doing stuff. Each room presents a different situation, and each situation is it's own scenario.

Ok, so what if during the breakup scenario, the two breakuppers wander from room to room in a house as they argue? Not an adventure. It's not like each room presents a different situation. Let's say the two breakuppers split up and one flies to a different country and they continue to argue over cell phones. Is it an adventure yet? Nope. Same situation. You just changed the backdrop.

Ok, so what if the breakup starts in one location and then a bad guy abducts one party, and the other guy has to figure out clues to find her? Each clue is a scenario. Thats an adventure.

What if they break up in a haunted house and each room has it's own unique situation? Thats probably an adventure.

Normal house? Not an adventure. It's not like the situation changes when they enter the kitchen or whatever.

No, a scenario is the form the adventure takes. A scenario will have scenes and locations, but those do not constitute scenarios in and of themselves. Furthermore, an adventure is about something. In this case about a breakup. And, yes, an adventure can take place in a house. Adventures are not restricted to exotic locales.

Besides which, an adventure is something you have. It's what happens while you're trying to do something. Even a shopping trip can be an adventure when approached the right way.

My point is, you can have adventures even in the strangest of places, and in the oddest of circumstances. Which is tangential to my original point, that RPGs are about adventures.

That's a very broad definition of 'adventure'.

Quote from: mythusmagePare the RPG down to the core. Toss system, mechanics, theory, style, and stance. Why do people play RPGs? At the very heart of the matter, what is the player's motivation?

To have adventures. To participate in activities you can't necessarily participate in in real life, everything else is just complications.

IME people enjoy RPGs for a variety of reasons - in my group's case the main  reason, being that they enjoy playing a role and interacting with other folks who are also playing a role.

Player's motivation and to have adventures does not sit well with me...I'll get back to you on this point

Regards,
David R

Quote from: mythusmageMy point is, you can have adventures even in the strangest of places, and in the oddest of circumstances. Which is tangential to my original point, that RPGs are about adventures.

Okay, thought about this a little more. I think adventures is too vague a term and doesn't really reflect the spirit of why we and by this I mean my players play rpgs. I think a more appropiate word is Journey.

Okay, what do I mean by this? As I mentioned earlier, my players play rpgs (or so the consensus around the gaming table seems to be) because they like playing a role and interacting with others who are also playing roles.

But RPGs are so much more than playing a role and interacting with other players. For some folks, it's about the Journey, their characters take. Say, you start of as a brash young pilot but evolve into a knight who saves the galaxy, discovering things about yourself along the way.

The Journey from point A to B is what's it's all about. Sure they have adventures along the way - and depending on the kind of game, adventures could be as thrilling as stopping the Dark Lord or as banal as discovering something about your spouse that you did not know - but the core as you put, is about the Journey.

Do you get where I'm coming from?

Regards,
David R

The Hero's Journey, by Joseph Campbell is often on the syllabus for screenwriting programs.

Basically -- Journey = Adventure = Story