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What Games are improved by making it easy for the characters?

Started by Settembrini, February 03, 2007, 11:52:04 AM

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Settembrini

I see "tactics", but not problem solving in DitV.
That is, the same "tactics" you have in Polaris: Do I intervene or not? Am I gouing for a small or a big change?

That´s decision making. Okay. But not problem solving, in the way I meant it.

But if you want to fish for story-friends to get them over to your thematic games, go ahead. I won´t argue.
If there can\'t be a TPK against the will of the players it\'s not an RPG.- Pierce Inverarity

TonyLB

Quote from: SettembriniI see "tactics", but not problem solving in DitV.
Okay, that's interesting.

So I think this is how it's playing out:  I know what kind of gaming challenges a lot of these games provide, but I don't know exactly what kind of challenge you're looking for.  You know exactly what kind of challenge you're looking for, but don't know what kind of gaming challenges these games provide.  One of us should do some more explaining, and see if there's any common element that bridges the gap.

I think it'd be easier (and possibly less controversial) for you to elaborate on what kind of challenge you're looking for than for me to elaborate on what kind of challenges the games provide, but maybe that's just laziness on my part :D
Superheroes with heart:  Capes!

John Morrow

Quote from: droogAlmost like people had different...agendas....

Correct.  But not all agendas are...creative...
Robin Laws\' Game Styles Quiz Results:
Method Actor 100%, Butt-Kicker 75%, Tactician 42%, Storyteller 33%, Power Gamer 33%, Casual Gamer 33%, Specialist 17%

John Morrow

Quote from: TonyLBIn Dogs in the Vineyard, one of the major strategic questions is "Do I escalate this conflict to a level of greater violence, both giving myself more resources and putting other people (and, indirectly, myself) at greater risk?"  It's a choice I've seen people mull on numerous occasions:  "Is this conflict important enough to take that step?  If I make this step, can I win the battle before the consequences bite me too hard, or does the opponent have enough emotional resources to keep fighting me?"  They make decisions on that which are strategic and thematic at the same time.  The strategic decision and the thematic decision are the same decision.  Same-same.

And that's what I think baffles me the most about how people talk about DitV and why I've never seen the magic people want me to see in the Actual Play threads I've been referred to.  Do you really need a system to structure that kind of choice for you?  I mean, seriously, my characters make choices that are, thematically and tactically or strategically, just like that all the time in games I play in, yet people make it sound like they've never seen a character mull over a choice like that before.  Is that sort of thing really so rare in the games other people play?

ADDED:  Actually, I think I may understand what's going on.  The mechanics of DitV frame conflicts in a way that parallels the way a player might think about the contest while thinking in character, except the player doesn't have to be thinking in character to do it.  So maybe it's a tool to help people focus their decisions along certain lines.  And that would make some sense given how Vincent has said he role-plays.
Robin Laws\' Game Styles Quiz Results:
Method Actor 100%, Butt-Kicker 75%, Tactician 42%, Storyteller 33%, Power Gamer 33%, Casual Gamer 33%, Specialist 17%

TonyLB

Quote from: John MorrowDo you really need a system to structure that kind of choice for you?
I've never quite understood why people ask this particular question.  It seems custom made to be unanswerable.  It's like "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

Seriously ... what kind of response would you like to see from me here?  Is it just a rhetorical question, meant to score points, or ... what?
Superheroes with heart:  Capes!

John Morrow

Quote from: TonyLBI've never quite understood why people ask this particular question.  It seems custom made to be unanswerable.  It's like "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

No.  I think the question is more akin to asking a person who wears glasses if they really need those things to see and the answer can simply be "Yes".

ADDED:  That may sound like a ridiculous question but it's not really if the person asking it has never met a person before who couldn't see perfectly without glasses.  In all seriousness, it seems like people are gushing over things that I've never seen a game not have.
Robin Laws\' Game Styles Quiz Results:
Method Actor 100%, Butt-Kicker 75%, Tactician 42%, Storyteller 33%, Power Gamer 33%, Casual Gamer 33%, Specialist 17%

Settembrini

QuoteIn all seriousness, it seems like people are gushing over things that I've never seen a game not have.

Give in to your anger and complete your jorney the Pundit-side of "the talk".
If there can\'t be a TPK against the will of the players it\'s not an RPG.- Pierce Inverarity

TonyLB

Quote from: John MorrowNo.  I think the question is more akin to asking a person who wears glasses if they really need those things to see and the answer can simply be "Yes".

ADDED:  That may sound like a ridiculous question but it's not really if the person asking it has never met a person before who couldn't see perfectly without glasses.  In all seriousness, it seems like people are gushing over things that I've never seen a game not have.
>sigh<

Okay, fine.  I'll go through this again.  But I'm tellin' you, if it ends up just like the last hundred times I've fielded this question then I'm going to be very disappointed. :D

No, I do not need a system that directly supports addressing emotional questions in order to achieve emotionally rich stories.

Do you have a follow-up question?
Superheroes with heart:  Capes!

John Morrow

Quote from: TonyLBNo, I do not need a system that directly supports addressing emotional questions in order to achieve emotionally rich stories.

Do you have a follow-up question?

Why did you specifically pick Dogs in the Vineyard for your example when the sort of thematic challenge that you mentioned could be described free of the context of any system?  Is it because it specifically frames the elements of the decision with the rules?
Robin Laws\' Game Styles Quiz Results:
Method Actor 100%, Butt-Kicker 75%, Tactician 42%, Storyteller 33%, Power Gamer 33%, Casual Gamer 33%, Specialist 17%

TonyLB

Quote from: John MorrowWhy did you specifically pick Dogs in the Vineyard for your example when the sort of thematic challenge that you mentioned could be described free of the context of any system?  Is it because it specifically frames the elements of the decision with the rules?
Because the system helps me do a better job, easier, than I would without the system.
Superheroes with heart:  Capes!

John Morrow

Quote from: TonyLBBecause the system helps me do a better job, easier, than I would without the system.

OK.  Fair enough.  Just making sure I understand where you are coming from.
Robin Laws\' Game Styles Quiz Results:
Method Actor 100%, Butt-Kicker 75%, Tactician 42%, Storyteller 33%, Power Gamer 33%, Casual Gamer 33%, Specialist 17%

TonyLB

Okay, so I've got a question back.

I accept that you can do these things without a system.  Why does that make you less interested in looking at a system that might help?
Superheroes with heart:  Capes!

John Morrow

Quote from: TonyLBI accept that you can do these things without a system.  Why does that make you less interested in looking at a system that might help?

This is part of a broader theory that I have that where the players and GM know what should happen in the game, the rules will do one of two things.  Either the rules will confirm what the players and GM already know should happen next (at which point, using the rules doesn't provide any benefit over what they already had without them) or the rules will give an answer they don't want, the wrong answer, and then the rules are making the game worse for them.  So the best case scenario is that the rules are simply telling everyone what they already know and the worst case is that they are making the game worse.

The other (imperfect) example I'll offer is training wheels.  If you don't know how to ride a bicycle, training wheels can help keep you from falling over.  If you already know how to ride a bicycle, they get in the way because they make it difficult to lean the bicycle into turns, stick out where they can hit things, etc.  That's why nobody that learns how to ride a bicycle leaves them on the bicycle.  Yes, I know this is imperfect analogy because it implies a training tool, but focus on the "helpful if you can't do it without them" but "get in the way if you already know what you are doing" aspect only.  The point I'm trying to make is that things that help people who need help can get in the way of people who don't need help, whether it's training wheels, a GUI wizard, pop-up hints, a formalized process, etc.

Not only don't I seem to need the help (I get scenes every bit as dramatic as what I've seen in DitV actual play threads in the games that I play in).  The sort of help DitV offers gets in the way of how I get that already (which also provides other benefits to my enjoyment).  At best all DitV will do is give me an aspect of play I already have and at worst, it will fight what I really want to do in the game (which is play in character).  So what's the point?

What I'm trying to understand is what the point is to people who think DitV's dramatic conflicts are so great.  Is it that they've never had play that intense before?  And the reason why I sound like an idiot asking a person who wears glasses if they really need them to see is that the vast majority of players I've met don't seem to have any problem getting that sort of intensity in their games.  And this, of course, is yet another reason why I'm skeptical that anyone's anecdotal experiences are characteristic of the entire hobby.
Robin Laws\' Game Styles Quiz Results:
Method Actor 100%, Butt-Kicker 75%, Tactician 42%, Storyteller 33%, Power Gamer 33%, Casual Gamer 33%, Specialist 17%

TonyLB

Quote from: John MorrowThis is part of a broader theory that I have that where the players and GM know what should happen in the game, the rules will do one of two things.  Either the rules will confirm what the players and GM already know should happen next (at which point, using the rules doesn't provide any benefit over what they already had without them) or the rules will give an answer they don't want, the wrong answer, and then the rules are making the game worse for them.  So the best case scenario is that the rules are simply telling everyone what they already know and the worst case is that they are making the game worse.
Is this a theory only for you, or a theory for all people?  It really (and I mean intensely) doesn't match up with my personal experience.
Superheroes with heart:  Capes!

John Morrow

Quote from: TonyLBIs this a theory only for you, or a theory for all people?  It really (and I mean intensely) doesn't match up with my personal experience.

That experience seems to lie at the heart of a great deal of hostility toward dice and rules.

Can you explain how it doesn't match with your personal experience?
Robin Laws\' Game Styles Quiz Results:
Method Actor 100%, Butt-Kicker 75%, Tactician 42%, Storyteller 33%, Power Gamer 33%, Casual Gamer 33%, Specialist 17%