I know there is a WH 40K rpg. For me, IT's not what I would be going for. Do you think it would be possible to create an RPG for WH 40K, but in a OSR format?

Basically have ability scores, classes, class-based skills, and maybe some inherent talents.

I would like to workshop this with people. Throw out some ideas.

Thanks

Quote from: blackstone on January 23, 2025, 02:32:04 PMI know there is a WH 40K rpg. For me, IT's not what I would be going for. Do you think it would be possible to create an RPG for WH 40K, but in a OSR format?

Basically have ability scores, classes, class-based skills, and maybe some inherent talents.

I would like to workshop this with people. Throw out some ideas.

Thanks

I'm not interested in WH. But the home system I'm working on covers most of the ground you're looking for.

I started with Knave 1E. It uses ability scores as the base for it's resolution system. I modified it's fixed bonuses to a variable die. It also strips out character classes. So character levels are the base descriptor for character power/durability.

Because I like classes, I added class talents from community versions of Knave to give options for class abilities independent from class levels.

I reviewed classes from prior editions, alternate games, gaming magazines, and supplements. The ones included in the play test were re written in a 10 level format at BX power levels.

A simple skill system came next.

System overview:

Character attributes: 0 to d12
Perks or talents: give narrow bonuses or limited effects.
Class levels: give bundled talents or specific effects.
Skills: bonus to a specific type of roll.

I prefer the less random 2d10.

Most rolls are 2d10 + Attribute die + skill level + possible perk/talent bonus vs a DC number.

The play test has completed 40 sessions and seems to be keeping everyone happy.

Just spitballing:

If I was doing it in OSR format, I'd definitely do race-as-class or at least have classes specific to race. An Eldar or Tau soldier is so drastically different from a Guardsman that I don't think a standard "fighter" class would fit. Plus things like Space Marines are kind of both a race and a class.

One of the things I think the official 40K RPGs do that's smart is partition off different parts of the universe into separate games (Rogue Trader, Dark Heresy, Black Crusade etc.). That potentially forecloses some of the scaling issues which otherwise would plague a general 40K RPG. Simply put, there's no way in an OSR class setup that you could balance an Imperial Guardsman and an Ultramarine as two player classes without either breaking the lore or breaking the game.

Assuming you don't want to go that route, they way I'd go about it would be to confine player classes to "elite" character types in the setting, so Space Marines, Adeptus Sororitas, Tech Priests, Imperial Assassins, Psykers, etc. Maybe Ogryns or Aspect Warriors if you want to get more exotic. I know that even within that list there's a wide disparity of canon power levels, but I think that it's within the range where you can flatten the curve a little bit, make up the rest with different XP progression rates, and still not shatter the lore. Regular human characters would be the equivalent of 0-level peasants in D&D.

That approach would lose people like me who are more interested in the regular mortals of 40K than the super-soldiers, but I think we'd be in the minority. The only other option I see is to make a game where the players can only be regular mortals. If you were doing that then it'd be an easy conversion of any sci-fi OSR game. Machinations of the Space Princess would be my pick.

The other scaling issue to address is weapons and armor. 40k has as wide a range in tech capabilities as it has  in character power levels, so I don't think the standard OSR AC range would cut it. I think you'd need to have either an armor soak or armor save system --possibly both-- as well as armor-piercing scores for weapons. Usually OSR games strive for the idea that a random peasant with a pitchfork can get lucky and take down a knight, but a space marine is genuinely supposed to be able to laugh off lasgun fire and survive high explosive shells. Really it almost demands something like Palladium's "mega damage" rules, but you might be able to get away with just massive armor soaks instead. I'd also give the classes different Evasion bonuses to their AC-equivalent, since several character types in 40K are supposed to be superhumanly fast.

If you want to get really deep into the emulating the setting, then you're also potentially going to need a Corruption mechanic, to track how close your character is to falling to Chaos. I don't care for that kind of system though, so I don't have much to suggest on it.

Your point on something like mega-damage for armor is a good one. Worth considering is that Palladium itself is an old school class/level based system so it might provide a more useful baseline than TSR-era D&D.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 27, 2025, 10:06:10 AMYour point on something like mega-damage for armor is a good one. Worth considering is that Palladium itself is an old school class/level based system so it might provide a more useful baseline than TSR-era D&D.

Good point. I have a lot of material for Rifts, so it might be worth taking a look.

Space marine = Glitter boy or Coalition Soldier?

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 24, 2025, 11:34:05 PMIf you want to get really deep into the emulating the setting, then you're also potentially going to need a Corruption mechanic, to track how close your character is to falling to Chaos. I don't care for that kind of system though, so I don't have much to suggest on it.

I think a system similar to the Sanity rules for CoC might work. Thoughts?

I've been meaning to hack together Star Adventurer to make a 40k game work, I just haven't had players that would be interested yet.

IDK about the race as class thing for 40k. To start with, the setting will very rarely have mixed parties in that way, unless I guess if you're running a rogue trader with a Eldar companion, or maybe a Tau commune thing. If you wanted a mix between astartes and unaugmented humans that'll def take some doing. A lot of the physic stuff in Star Adventurer would be easy to rework into warp powers, just add some extra cost and a low but everpresent chance of exploding into a demon portal or the like.

Quote from: blackstone on February 04, 2025, 12:40:54 PMI think a system similar to the Sanity rules for CoC might work. Thoughts?

Maybe. Each character would have their own flavor of corruption, which would determin what triggers them having to make a roll and what kind of mischief they might be compelled to when failing. It would also be supercharged for psykers.

But, I don't think such a system is strictly necesary for the normal characters.

Quote from: blackstone on February 04, 2025, 12:40:54 PM

Quote from: ForgottenF on January 24, 2025, 11:34:05 PMIf you want to get really deep into the emulating the setting, then you're also potentially going to need a Corruption mechanic, to track how close your character is to falling to Chaos. I don't care for that kind of system though, so I don't have much to suggest on it.

I think a system similar to the Sanity rules for CoC might work. Thoughts?

It's been a long time since I looked at the CoC rules, but if memory serves it makes some sense. One thing I remember about them is that you take sanity damage upon first encounter with a new aspect of the Mythos and then get inured to it to a degree. That tracks with the way I understand the influence of chaos in 40K. The Perversity score in Ghastly Affair would be a more OSR example. In that, Perversity starts as another 3-18 attribute, and if you encounter something that might increase the score, then at the end of the adventure you make a saving throw (Charisma-based in that game) or else have it go up a point. If it gets to 20, you've gone mad and your character becomes a villainous NPC.

Quote from: Zenoguy3 on February 04, 2025, 02:26:56 PMIDK about the race as class thing for 40k. To start with, the setting will very rarely have mixed parties in that way, unless I guess if you're running a rogue trader with a Eldar companion, or maybe a Tau commune thing. If you wanted a mix between astartes and unaugmented humans that'll def take some doing.

Yeah, that's another place where you'd likely be stretching the canon a bit, but the only other option I see is to fall back on the different-games-for-different-factions approach. I take the OP as talking about making a general 40K game, so I think you could put in classes for the less evil xenos and let individual groups decide how much they're willing to mix them into the game. Hell, you could put in classes for everyone and then give the option of running a Greenskins or Dark Elf campaign, but I think that'd be wasted effort to start with. Either way, you could still do a party of a space marine, a techpriest, a sister of silence, an inquisitor, etc.

Quote from: blackstone on February 04, 2025, 12:39:42 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 27, 2025, 10:06:10 AMYour point on something like mega-damage for armor is a good one. Worth considering is that Palladium itself is an old school class/level based system so it might provide a more useful baseline than TSR-era D&D.

Good point. I have a lot of material for Rifts, so it might be worth taking a look.

Space marine = Glitter boy or Coalition Soldier?

Given their innate enhancements I'd lean either "Euro-Juicer" (like a traditional Juicer, but with the enhancement drugs turned down to not be lethal in five years) or Headhunter (partial cyborg) clad in something like the Northern Gun NX-01 Samson power armor (rail gun = bolter by default).

ETA: now that I think about I believe LoneStar has a few human genetic enhancements that might work for the Marine's genetic upgrades.

Quote from: ForgottenF on February 04, 2025, 04:34:54 PMHell, you could put in classes for everyone and then give the option of running a Greenskins or Dark Elf campaign, but I think that'd be wasted effort to start with. Either way, you could still do a party of a space marine, a techpriest, a sister of silence, an inquisitor, etc.

Yep, that's exactly what I was thinking.

Quote from: blackstone on January 23, 2025, 02:32:04 PMDo you think it would be possible to create an RPG for WH 40K, but in a OSR format?

Do you hear about «Grimdark Millennium»?
Its free hack of «MÖRK BORG». I don't think this is exactly what is needed, but it might be a good starting point.