Quote from: LordVreeg;825645At least you know I clicked it!

Lol. One of the things I love about blogger is the stats page. Generally I can get a sense of +1s are polite pats on the back or reflection of genuine interest by how many hits I get for each post. The wuxia dungeon entries have been off the scales for us. Same with the film reviews.

Latest session log: Secret of Je Valley Part V

Tomb of the Timeless Master Playtest Report: PLAYTEST REPORT

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;826569Latest session log: Secret of Je Valley Part V

The Je Valley Part V hyperlink has some cruft at the front that breaks it.

Quote from: fuseboy;828655The Je Valley Part V hyperlink has some cruft at the front that breaks it.

Thanks, should work now.

Latest session log: REPORT

Playtest report for group II: REPORT

Profound Masters of Ogre Gate: http://thebedrockblog.blogspot.com/2015/05/profound-masters-of-ogre-gate.html

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;830464Profound Masters of Ogre Gate: http://thebedrockblog.blogspot.com/2015/05/profound-masters-of-ogre-gate.html

I'm going to have to look through the character power scaling again.  I generally hated high power games to begin with.  I might or might not, depending if it was a drunken dream or drunken reality, peed on a copy of the Immortal rules of D&D once.

To get to Qi rank, 6, how much play are you thinking?

Quote from: LordVreeg;830703I'm going to have to look through the character power scaling again.  I generally hated high power games to begin with.  I might or might not, depending if it was a drunken dream or drunken reality, peed on a copy of the Immortal rules of D&D once.

To get to Qi rank, 6, how much play are you thinking?

It is wuxia so the power level is definitely a bit on the high side. I don't know how familiar people are with the genre (particularly as it appears on television series which was a pretty big influence on the game) but if you want the introductions to the following programs (just the two minute musical montage intros, that should give a good idea of the power level we are talking about):

Romance of Condor Heroes 2014: http://www.viki.com/videos/1057016v-episode-1

Demi-Gods and Semi-Devils 2013: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKHeaif-CZQ

These would represent levels of power attainable by Qi rank 6.
 
Characters start out somewhat weak (3 health at Qi rank 1 with a handful of minor Kung Fu Techniques). As their Qi increases, their health increase and so does the power of their techniques (as well as their access to techniques). So a Qi level 6 character has 13 health, versus a Qi level 1 with 3 health, plus they are just doing more damage). This is the present arrangement at least (we've been tweaking the health totals slowly and this could change).

Once you get to Qi 6, you would need to become an immortal to attain more Qi ranks. Qi 6 is pretty beefy in the game already. If you skip the immortal stuff and only allow players to reach Qi level 6, they would be the equivalent of one of the great masters in a high powered wuxia film or series.

In terms of how long it might take we offer a standard XP progression and will probably offer two optional rates as well. Right now this is the standard rate (XP progression is something we are actively tweaking at the moment):

Qi Level         XP Requirement
1            0
2            6
3            18   
4            36
5            72
6            120
Immortal (7 and beyond)*   240

If you meet the XP requirement (and additional requirements) you can progress to the next Qi level. Characters can earn between 1-3 XP per session (they can in rare cases earn bonus XP but those are quite exceptional). So in a weekly game if you manage to get 3 xp every session, then you would reach Qi level 6 in 40 weeks. If you only earn 1 XP a session it would take you 120 weeks (or over two years).

This is a bit of a tricky thing to set because some groups want to take years and years before something like Qi rank 6 would even be possible, other groups might want to get there in 6 months. The current XP chart is something of an attempt to meet both groups half way (you have fairly rapid advancement at first but it gets increasingly harder to progress----however in the end it still won't take you decades to get to 6). One solution we are considering is having a short xp option and long xp option (essentially one that allows you to became great masters in a matter of months and on that makes you wait much longer). But the one above would be our default standard.

Once you get to Qi rank 6 and can become an immortal, in theory the sky is the limit after that, but you are also talking much higher level play and we are giving ourselves a full year at least to write those rules. We've set up the basics of immortal play in the core book (it includes immortals, a brief section on how to become one, and a small list of immortal powers and profound kung fu techniques). However that is just ground work for the Profound Masters of Ogre Gate book which will have way more options, explanations, realms, monsters, magical objects, etc.

Immortal Level play is going to look something like Zu Warriors from Magic Mountain, Journey to the West, Legend of Zu, Sorcerer and the White Snake or Chinese Paladin. At this stage characters are much closer to super hero level ability (things like flight, regeneration, magical attacks all become more the norm).

Right now I have a group of Qi rank 3 and 2 characters in my regular campaign. How potent they are is somewhat dependent on their opponent's power level. A few sessions back they wiped out about 30 bandits with ease but then faced considerable challenging trying to contend with a few martial experts who were more at their level. Still tweaking some of the numbers and techniques though (for example we found a technique that the player could basically spam to totally control the battlefield and had to adjust it a bit so it wasn't so formidable---basically raised the Qi rank, made it a touch less effective.....generally our rule of thumb is to raise the Qi rank first when things seem overpowered before tamping them down a notch).

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;830710It is wuxia so the power level is definitely a bit on the high side. I don't know how familiar people are with the genre (particularly as it appears on television series which was a pretty big influence on the game) but if you want the introductions to the following programs (just the two minute musical montage intros, that should give a good idea of the power level we are talking about):

Romance of Condor Heroes 2014: http://www.viki.com/videos/1057016v-episode-1

Demi-Gods and Semi-Devils 2013: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKHeaif-CZQ

These would represent levels of power attainable by Qi rank 6.
 
Characters start out somewhat weak (3 health at Qi rank 1 with a handful of minor Kung Fu Techniques). As their Qi increases, their health increase and so does the power of their techniques (as well as their access to techniques). So a Qi level 6 character has 13 health, versus a Qi level 1 with 3 health, plus they are just doing more damage). This is the present arrangement at least (we've been tweaking the health totals slowly and this could change).

Once you get to Qi 6, you would need to become an immortal to attain more Qi ranks. Qi 6 is pretty beefy in the game already. If you skip the immortal stuff and only allow players to reach Qi level 6, they would be the equivalent of one of the great masters in a high powered wuxia film or series.

In terms of how long it might take we offer a standard XP progression and will probably offer two optional rates as well. Right now this is the standard rate (XP progression is something we are actively tweaking at the moment):

Qi Level         XP Requirement
1            0
2            6
3            18   
4            36
5            72
6            120
Immortal (7 and beyond)*   240

If you meet the XP requirement (and additional requirements) you can progress to the next Qi level. Characters can earn between 1-3 XP per session (they can in rare cases earn bonus XP but those are quite exceptional). So in a weekly game if you manage to get 3 xp every session, then you would reach Qi level 6 in 40 weeks. If you only earn 1 XP a session it would take you 120 weeks (or over two years).

This is a bit of a tricky thing to set because some groups want to take years and years before something like Qi rank 6 would even be possible, other groups might want to get there in 6 months. The current XP chart is something of an attempt to meet both groups half way (you have fairly rapid advancement at first but it gets increasingly harder to progress----however in the end it still won't take you decades to get to 6). One solution we are considering is having a short xp option and long xp option (essentially one that allows you to became great masters in a matter of months and on that makes you wait much longer). But the one above would be our default standard.

Once you get to Qi rank 6 and can become an immortal, in theory the sky is the limit after that, but you are also talking much higher level play and we are giving ourselves a full year at least to write those rules. We've set up the basics of immortal play in the core book (it includes immortals, a brief section on how to become one, and a small list of immortal powers and profound kung fu techniques). However that is just ground work for the Profound Masters of Ogre Gate book which will have way more options, explanations, realms, monsters, magical objects, etc.

Immortal Level play is going to look something like Zu Warriors from Magic Mountain, Journey to the West, Legend of Zu, Sorcerer and the White Snake or Chinese Paladin. At this stage characters are much closer to super hero level ability (things like flight, regeneration, magical attacks all become more the norm).

Right now I have a group of Qi rank 3 and 2 characters in my regular campaign. How potent they are is somewhat dependent on their opponent's power level. A few sessions back they wiped out about 30 bandits with ease but then faced considerable challenging trying to contend with a few martial experts who were more at their level. Still tweaking some of the numbers and techniques though (for example we found a technique that the player could basically spam to totally control the battlefield and had to adjust it a bit so it wasn't so formidable---basically raised the Qi rank, made it a touch less effective.....generally our rule of thumb is to raise the Qi rank first when things seem overpowered before tamping them down a notch).

6+ immortal seems to be a little lack of granularity, unless the campaigns are supposed to always support immortal.  I get the genre, but for play, maybe a bit more would provide a bit more reward in play and a bigger variety in foes.  Just a thought.  So you know I'm paying attention.

Quote from: LordVreeg;8307196+ immortal seems to be a little lack of granularity, unless the campaigns are supposed to always support immortal.  I get the genre, but for play, maybe a bit more would provide a bit more reward in play and a bigger variety in foes.  Just a thought.  So you know I'm paying attention.

Granularity hasn't really been a goal of our system, so wouldn't want to create the false expectation that the game is meant for that. Because it uses dice pools, this seems to work best (at least for us). It has always kept the numbers fairly narrow, partly as an outgrowth of making sure the pools stay reasonable. So in Sertorius you also have a 1-6 power range, with skills ranked 0-3.

The core game was designed with 1-6 in mind rather than immortal play, so the ultimate goal would be to become one of the greats in the setting at power level 6 (even at that point you can still increase your power by learning more techniques and increasing your skills). If you want to continue into immortal level play you can, but it isn't required (though the setting portion of the book has immortals in it). Keep in mind though, you don't need to increase in Qi level to gain new kung fu techniques or skills. Qi levels are not quite levels in the sense you have in D&D. You gain new Kung Fu Techniques, increase skill ranks, and acquire expertise through spending XP. All the Qi levels do is increase health, magnify certain kung fu techniques (for instance you may multiply the damage by Qi rank in some instances), and give you access to higher level techniques (Kung Fu Techniques all have a Qi rank of 1-6 associated with them, so if you are Qi rank two, you can learn Kung Fu Techniques tagged Qi 1 or 2. If you increase to Qi rank 3, you can learn those tagged at Qi 1,2 and 3. Still not granular in the level 1-20 sense.

Obviously tastes are going to vary so I can't speak how suited the game would be for your table and preferences. If the granularity is an issue, one easy fix is to strip out the immortal aspect but keep the uncapped Qi ranks. Personally i just find working with 6 tiers for Kung Fu powers and power levels more manageable. We had discussed going a different route earlier in the design process with Ogre Gate (for example doing Qi levels 1-13) but we ultimately felt the range of 1-6 worked for what we were doing at the table better (and we would have found ourselves forcing the creation of techniques to meet all those tiers). We also felt we had a better sense of 1-6 and what our mechanical choices would mean because we've been running sertorius for the past several years with that as the basis. Right now I feel pretty comfortable with my sense of what a Qi rank 5 character means in the setting and how much punishment a group of Qi rank 2 level characters can take. I would be concerned about tweaking that granularity this late in the process simply because it could produce a very different end result.

What we've seen in practice with the 1-6 power levels is each one is the jump between them is pretty significant. So Qi level 1 to Qi level 2 isn't as narrow or granular as levels 1-2 in D&D, it is more like the jump between level 1 and level 3 or 4. Which works for me, but again might not work for others.

One thing to keep in mind is immortals have uncapped Qi ranks, so they can keep increasing beyond 6. When you reach 7, you are still going by Qi level rank. So you have immortals that are Qi 7, 8, 9, 10, etc. And in immortal games this can go as high as 22 (so on the immortal end of it, where characters can attain insane levels of power, the granularity is perhaps greater---it may even go higher, but 22 is the highest qi rank immortal we've made for the campaign). A few things change in the calculation though. At Qi 7 you stop adding your qi ranks to increase defenses (otherwise people would be walking around with 10s in everything) and you start gaining access to Immortal Powers and Profound Kung Fu Techniques.

When we designed the original network game we didn't want was buckets of dice. This was an especially big concern when we moved into fantasy and other supernatural genres. So even at the immortal level, there is a cap (soft cap of 6d10 and hard cap of 10d10 in unusual situations). An immortal with Qi rank 14 isn't going to be flinging pools of 14 d10. What he will be doing instead is rolling up to 6d10 with some additional effects or flat additional wounds.

Quote from: LordVreeg;8307196+ immortal seems to be a little lack of granularity, unless the campaigns are supposed to always support immortal.  I get the genre, but for play, maybe a bit more would provide a bit more reward in play and a bigger variety in foes.  Just a thought.  So you know I'm paying attention.

One thing I would definitely welcome is people hacking the system to make it more granular if they want more levels but don't want immortal play. So if you found you liked the concept and some of the rules but hated the granularity, one solution might be a Celtricia-style hack of the system (either making ogre gate more like Celtricia or bringing some of the Celtricia level granularity to Ogre Gate. This is one of the reasons I made The Kung Fu Technique Chapter public domain. I figured the game I'm making is designed for what works at my table, but I imagine lots of people will want slightly different things (they might want more granularity like you, or they might want powers that have greater parity, are more gonzo, etc).

By the way I appreciate the posts Lord Vreeg. These kinds of questions and posts are really helpful. I found a huge mistake in the manuscript today when I was looking up an answer to your question.

Here is the latest playtest report: http://thebedrockblog.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-secret-of-je-valley-vii.html