Blood of the Demon Moon Cult Session X:  http://thebedrockblog.blogspot.com/2015/11/blood-of-demon-moon-cult-session-x.html

Sect preview:  http://thebedrockblog.blogspot.com/2015/11/wandering-heroes-of-ogre-gate-sect.html

The Secret of Je Valley XVII: Mercy is for the Weak: http://thebedrockblog.blogspot.com/2015/11/the-secret-of-je-valley-xvii-mercy-is.html

Blood of the Demon Moon Cult Session XI: Wind of the Demon Emperor http://thebedrockblog.blogspot.com/2015/11/blood-of-demon-moon-cult-session-xi.html

Blood of the Demon Moon Cult Session XII: Marriage and Bloodshed http://thebedrockblog.blogspot.com/2015/11/blood-of-demon-moon-cult-session-xii.html

Switching to arabic numerals:

Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate Session 18: Statue of the Bold King: http://thebedrockblog.blogspot.com/2015/11/the-secret-of-je-valley-session-18.html

I'm enjoying the campaign posts Brendan. Two questions:

1) How long real time do your sessions tend to run. It seems like your PCs accomplish a lot in one session.

2) Am I the only person who finds these PCs un-heroic or heroic only in the sense of the selfish, squabbling heroes of the Illiad?

Quote from: Bren;866444I'm enjoying the campaign posts Brendan. Two questions:

1) How long real time do your sessions tend to run. It seems like your PCs accomplish a lot in one session.

Thanks. Part of that is my GMing style. I am a very impatient GM. I let players do whatever they want, and I don't worry about pacing, but I am constantly asking people what they do next to keep things moving (simply because I bore easily in the GM chair). But there are some other reasons it may look like a lot happens.

Sessions are not too long. This varies but 1-5 PM (sometimes 1-6 or 1-7 if people can swing it) is a typical session for Je Valley campaign and 6-9 is typical for Demon Moon campaign (we'd go to 10 but I have leave to get my wife at that time). A lot of the efficiency has to do with the number of players in attendance in a session (this session was 3 players present, but Je valley can have as many as 6 players depending on who can make it); Demon Moon is always 3 players now----we originally had 4 for that but scheduling got in the way). When there are just three players, the game doesnt get as bogged down during times when they are planning.  But the flow can really vary and sometimes how I describe it may not be the best indication of how long each thing was dealt with at the table. To give an example, the session where they attacked Bone Breaker's boat (session 17), was mostly focused on the combat itself (it was just an unusually long battle). They spend about 40 percent of their time in the city gathering info and planning, with the last 60 percent devoted to the attack.

Last session, once they got to Fan, it was all happening within the city limits (and they had taken a boat to get there so the journey was quick and safe). I tend to be pretty efficient though as a GM. The order of that session was a little weird because I was going back and forth between Kang, Zhi Zhu and Rong (who were the three players present that day). Generally if the players plans are solid, they don't run into many of the challenges that would slow them down. So they had a pretty tight scheme for getting into the statue with lots of prep before hand, so literally Kang and the Spirit Man just walked in the front entrance dressed as guards, brought the seal up to the head and it took all of about ten minutes to enact the full plan). Do keep in mind, as might have been clear from the end, the Senior Gran Councilor wanted them to succeed. He totally knew what they were up to, anticipated it weeks ago and was using it to enact his own plans against the emperor (this has been a recurring thing in the campaign, where some of their enemies are really smart and playing to win).

Players sometimes are surprised in my games that they can "get to the end" quickly. So there is probably also a structural element involved. I don't tend to worry about setting up challenges so that it feels like a slog to the big bad. I set up the NPCs, the groups, decide what measures they take and allow the players to plan accordingly. Sometimes that means the PCs spend three sessions in a single location (like when they were struggling to get through the Tomb of the Timeless Master) but it also means if they find a window into the right room and sneak in, some challenges are over in minutes.

The demon moon campaign has been moving fast for one major reason. The leader of that group has an army of 40,000 Kailin horsemen (and before that he had a force of several hundred bandits). With forces that large, he has been able to safely travel without worrying about encounters too much. And much of what they have been doing has been going and meeting with different people. So the past few sessions, it has been a foregone conclusion that he will get from point A to point B with very little interference (most of their encounters have actually been with messengers).

Quote2) Am I the only person who finds these PCs un-heroic or heroic only in the sense of the selfish, squabbling heroes of the Illiad?

Both groups are very different so that is hard to answer with a single response that covers both. Generally, yes, these are not terribly heroic campaigns (particularly Demon moon, but the other campaign as well). Also I am running this more in the Killer Clans mode of things, so this is sort of the gritty, blood-stained martial world where endless cycles of grudges have taken their toll and the lines between righteous and evil are not all that clearly drawn.

The Demon Moon campaign is a completely evil party. They have a sense of honor, and one of the PCs has a kind streak, but they've been roaming around taking over groups and coercing people to work for them in a variety of ways (using torture, death threats, etc to get what they want). They are also actively trying to restore the demon emperor. So they're evil as you can be in a setting like this. This party is basically my Unorthodox Campaign. I imagine them as a party modeled after the great evils in wuxia stories (it is like the youthful days of Ouyang Feng from Eagle Shooting Heroes). They want to have the best Kung FU and to amass power for themselves.

The Je Valley campaign is more complex and gray. It is a bit of a odd group. Kang, who is a kind of drunken master, is a little on the shady side (he's a drunk so his behavior is often unpredictable). Zhi Zhu has a moral code that is basically good, but a bad temper and when that gets triggered she kills. Lingsu is fairly moral, or at least a peacemaker of sorts, but he's also made some questionable decisions from time to time (he tends to hedge bets when they are deciding to let someone live or not). Long Shu is pretty decent if a bit odd. Rong is loyal to her sect and very determined. Min is basically good, if occasionally misguided. Really all the characters in this group, except Zhi Zhu, are focused on the goals of their sects. Kang can definitely be a dark influence on the party. Last session between him and Rong, they did some shady things in order to fight the demon emperor (pushing a guard into the lake so he would be possessed was a bit on the evil side, even if he was a bad guy). However their fight with the Yen-Li priest was somewhat justified. They've learned from experience that demons and spirits are not always as bad as guys like him seem to think (a member of their party married a snake demon for that reason).

Are they heroic? I think that might not be my call. If you find them unheroic, they are probably unheroic. But some of the heroism of the Je Valley campaign might not shine through in the logs so there is that. Keep in mind in terms of big picture stuff, they are trying to help the world (they are trying to bring an end to the empire, they saved the calamity child, they've thwarted Bronze Master and tried to keep the Wind Saber and Phoenix crown out of the hands of the sects). But they also have some distrust of one another because they come from three different sects and this has led to infighting on occasion. They are somewhat Unorthodox heroes I think. More in the style of Yang Guo from Return of Condor Heroes or Zhou Botong.

The way I write my logs can also sometimes not give actions their full context. The whole thing where Min cut off Abbot Firebrands hands wasn't as egregious as it seemed on first glance but might have come across that way because of how I type out the session logs (which is really more for my own records). Abbot had just knocked out all of her sworn brother's teeth (and he had been conspiring with a corrupt official to resurrect the demon emperor). Within the context of the world, she was justified to take revenge for Lingsu and putting an end to Abbot so he didn't bring back the Demon Emperor, but decided to cut off the abbot's hands instead so he couldn't do any more evil. Sometimes even good characters do stuff like that in wuxia. Guo Jing, who is probably one of the most upright characters, almost cut off his own daughters arm to punish her for slicing of Yang Guo's arm.

Now if Min had done some more digging, she would have learned that abbot was secretly working against the corrupt official and trying to steer bone breaker into the light, but that was information she really couldn't have seen from that vantage point. It is definitely a setting where killing and blood shed are something of a given and people often cut before they ask questions. When they learned what Abbot had been doing through the letters, I think they did make them more cautious.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;866453Thanks. Part of that is my GMing style. I am a very impatient GM. I let players do whatever they want, and I don't worry about pacing, but I am constantly asking people what they do next to keep things moving (simply because I bore easily in the GM chair).

Trust me, I know the feeling.

While more players does slow play, I find an even bigger factor is whether or not the group has a leader, preferanly someone who is actually good at it. For many years now I’ve predominantly had groups where all the players prefer someone else being the leader. They would rather be the second in command or play supporting roles. That works fine when I’m not the GM, but not so good when I am the GM.

Our session length is about the same as yours. We usually play 19:30-23:00. We seldom get started before 20:00 though we do run half an hour or so past our nominal end time so 3-4 hours is about average. I am a bit envious of the pace you have, especially the Demon Moon campaign (which is the campaign I’ve mostly followed).

QuoteGenerally if the players plans are solid, they don't run into many of the challenges that would slow them down. So they had a pretty tight scheme for getting into the statue with lots of prep before hand, so literally Kang and the Spirit Man just walked in the front entrance dressed as guards, brought the seal up to the head and it took all of about ten minutes to enact the full plan).

I should probably do that more often. Though unexpected complications fit a swashbuckling genre campaign really well so it is always tempting to check for complications even when the plan is a good one.

QuotePlayers sometimes are surprised in my games that they can "get to the end" quickly. So there is probably also a structural element involved. I don't tend to worry about setting up challenges so that it feels like a slog to the big bad.

Except as a change of pace, I find a slog to a big bad adventure structure incredibly boring. Having NPCs and groups with plans in motion is a lot more interesting to me from either side of the table.

QuoteThe demon moon campaign has been moving fast for one major reason. The leader of that group has an army of 40,000 Kailin horsemen (and before that he had a force of several hundred bandits). With forces that large, he has been able to safely travel without worrying about encounters too much. And much of what they have been doing has been going and meeting with different people. So the past few sessions, it has been a foregone conclusion that he will get from point A to point B with very little interference (most of their encounters have actually been with messengers).

I thought allowing the player to get control of 40,000 Kailin horsemen was interesting. Many GMs would strongly resist that and while it allows them to travel safely most of the time,  a bunch of NPC cavalry isn’t an I-Win button in the campaign you are running. The PCs still have problems to solve that an army of horsemen won’t really solve for them.

QuoteBoth groups are very different so that is hard to answer with a single response that covers both. Generally, yes, these are not terribly heroic campaigns (particularly Demon moon, but the other campaign as well).

I’ve mostly read the Demon Moon campaign so it was mostly those PCs I was talking about. I could totally see someone with Bone Breaker’s temperament fighting alongside Achilles, Ajax, and Odysseus beneath the topless towers of Illium. Well Achilles and Ajax, Odysseus would want to fight behind or off to the side of a guy like Bone Breaker or maybe trick him into taking out someone Odysseus didn’t like.

I've enjoyed reading your campaign posts. So thanks for the effort you make to write up and post.

Quote from: Bren;866456I should probably do that more often. Though unexpected complications fit a swashbuckling genre campaign really well so it is always tempting to check for complications even when the plan is a good one.

Unexpected complications will sometimes arise. The same group that swooped into the Statue, fell into an ambush a couple sessions back when they snuck into a general's residence.

QuoteI thought allowing the player to get control of 40,000 Kailin horsemen was interesting. Many GMs would strongly resist that and while it allows them to travel safely most of the time,  a bunch of NPC cavalry isn't an I-Win button in the campaign you are running. The PCs still have problems to solve that an army of horsemen won't really solve for them.

It also attracts attention and makes him a potential threat to people in the area who might not want a 40,000 army of Kailin Tribesmen on their border. Additionally he has to deal with the tribesmen (who are serving under pressure and whose sacred statue he has stolen). But yes, many of the challenges they are facing can't be overcome with an army.

QuoteI've mostly read the Demon Moon campaign so it was mostly those PCs I was talking about. I could totally see someone with Bone Breaker's temperament fighting alongside Achilles, Ajax, and Odysseus beneath the topless towers of Illium. Well Achilles and Ajax, Odysseus would want to fight behind or off to the side of a guy like Bone Breaker or maybe trick him into taking out someone Odysseus didn't like.

I've enjoyed reading your campaign posts. So thanks for the effort you make to write up and post.

In that case, yes Bone Breaker is more in the Achilles side of things (though I suppose I saw him more as one of these martial heroes from the Water Margin or a wuxia movie who just does what he wants because he can). He is definitely a bit on the villainous side. This whole group has a somewhat aggressive play style. I should have this Sunday's session up in the next day or so. It is interesting to see the differences in the two campaigns. Many of the same NPCs are present both, but in entirely different ways. I've sort of run with the explanation that it's Fated (the demon moon group is almost the reverse side of the coin of the Je valley group).

Blood of the Demon Moon Session 13: Gifts for the Wedding http://thebedrockblog.blogspot.com/2015/12/blood-of-demon-moon-session-13-gifts.html

Blood of the Demon Moon Cult Session 14: Prizes for the Tournament  http://thebedrockblog.blogspot.com/2015/12/blood-of-demon-moon-cult-session-14.html

The Secret of Zhe Valley 19: The Invisible Fish of Nansun http://thebedrockblog.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-secret-of-zhe-valley-session-19.html

Blood of the Demon Moon Cult Session 15: Iron Sky Realm http://thebedrockblog.blogspot.com/2015/12/blood-of-demon-moon-cult-session-15.html

Bone Breaker tries being a good guy for a change:

Blood of the Demon Moon Cult Session 16: Bone Breaker Considers Mercy http://thebedrockblog.blogspot.com/2015/12/blood-of-demon-moon-cult-session-16.html