This is a cross-post from the peg-inc forum,  and I am posting it here because I believe you are some of the best gaming minds on the net...  Anyway here goes.

I am trying to blend Paizo's kingdom building rules with Savage Worlds's character mechanics.  Mostly this is based on d20 attribute modifiers.

First, if you haven't seen my other posts, here are the Paizo rules:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/kingdom-building

Now here's the rest...

I think I can use something like the D20 to Savage Worlds conversion document:

First the stat mapping.

D20 Attribute | Savage Worlds Attribute
Strength | Strength
Dexterity | Agility
Constitution | Toughness
Intelligence | Smarts
Wisdom | Spirit

I'm also going to add...
Charisma | Spirit

Or maybe...
Charisma | (Spirit + Smarts)/2

Now the value mapping...

D20   Stat | Savage Worlds Stat | (Modifier from SRD)
3-6 | d4 | (-4,-3,-2)
7-11 | d6 | (-2,-1,0)
12-14 | d8 | (+1,+2)
15-16 | d10 | (+2,+3)
17-18 | d12 | (+3,+4)
19-20 | d12+1 | (+4,+5)
and so on

Now I do need to 'normalize' this since those SRD modifiers are pretty vast.

So I'm thinking either...

Taking the best:
d4 | -2
d6 | 0
d8 | +2
d10 | +3
d12 | +4
d12+1 | +5

Or maybe 'roll each turn'. Using these die averages...

Die | Average
d4 | 3
d6 | 4
d8 | 5
d10 | 6
d12 | 7
d12+1 | 8

...means I can get somewhat similar results from

(Attribute roll)-3

So the Marshal's "Benefit(s): Add your Dexterity modifier or Wisdom modifier to Economy." becomes one of...

"Add your Agility bonus or Spirit bonus to Economy."
Or, maybe...
"Add an (Agility roll, minus 3) or (Spirit roll, minus 3) to Economy."

I'm not great as a solo act. Anyone have any ideas?

Quote from: mcbobbo;679304I am trying to blend Paizo's kingdom building rules with Savage Worlds's character mechanics.

I am a bit lost: What exact outcome are you looking for?

@mcbobo:
Only a moron tries to convert the rules, not the setting, which is bound to fail horribly because d20 does not scale the same way that SW does, and he also spectacularly fail to understand that SW does not want(!) to achieve the level of micro-management that d20 is capable and also in need of.

If you're such a boring GM and want to force the tediousness of rules-governed microsim retard bullshit upon your players, at least don't CONVERT (SIC!) rules for d20 into SW. This wrong method has been tried and proven wrong so often that the mere sight of a opening post that presents a "conversion" makes me want to scream and yell at you in barbaric anger at the top of my lungs.


My hint: Take a look at what SW actually DOES and how it DOES things mechanics-wise, and then(!) try to model and shape rules that fit the way and modes the mechanics work, build your own system.

If you try to cram d20-rules into SW, both will break, crash and burn and guess who/what will be blamed for the failure? Not the dumbass who thought it would be a great idea to mix up and confuse apples with oranges, no, it will be the system that will be blamed, even though it was/is uncalled for.

I wonder whether you have actually read the rulebook at all, because when i think of what you want to achieve, there's a possilke solution that pops right into your eye... if you're not blind and/or dumb.

p.s.: ATM you're not a real Savage.

Quote from: jadrax;679307I am a bit lost: What exact outcome are you looking for?

I want to use Paizo's kingdom management rules in the same campaign as Savage Worlds's character management rules.

Phantom, I do not give a flying fuck about your tribalism bullshit.

If you have any kingdom management rules to show me inside that boom you're referencing, at least cite the page numbers. If it's in there, I truly have missed it.

As for what I want to play, well that's MY business, and I don't need to justify it to someone who makes such juvenile insults.

But thanks for the bump, anyway.

This could be worth a look for inspiration:

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/89055/Hellfrost%3A-Resource-Management

or even better (as its free)

//www.savageheroes.com/conversions/savage_westeros.pdf‎

Quote from: jadrax;679348This could be worth a look for inspiration:

http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/89055/Hellfrost%3A-Resource-Management

or even better (as its free)

//www.savageheroes.com/conversions/savage_westeros.pdf‎

Thanks.  Yeah, the Hellfrost rules are pretty similar.  Not as many fiddly bits, like building placement, but good.  I may use them as a fallback plan.

Still, if anyone is strong on the math of this - and the game theory - I would appreciate your input.

I think I will focus on 'typical' d20 stats, starting at the top.

So...

D12 = +4
D10 = +3
D8 = +2
D6 = +1
D4 = +0

I could also drop that range down one step, from +3 to -1.

I had a browse through the PF document but couldn't see explanations of the factors that the modifiers were adding to so much. I do see the problem though: I think an SW-type system would be more likely to have a character roll periodically and get some sort of benefit from success vs. a raise, but the PF-compatible (3rd party?) system just wants you to add your Dex mod to treasury rating if you're High Finangler (or whatever)...

Assuming that's the case the probabilities aren't important and you just want to generate a comparable range of modifiers, which is I guess about -1 to +5 (for a 20) for an initial PF character, increasing somewhat as they level and gain magic doodads and stat raises. By comparison, for SW characters the d12 is more or less a hard cap (at Legendary a couple of edges can get them to about d12+2).
Probably about +1 per step above d6 is reasonable. You would have to decide what Edges affect this as well though (perhaps give the Charismatic edge the same bonus as Leadership in the PF rules.

PS:  not sure it matters here but in terms of stat equivalence I'd say a d4 was more like an 8 or so stat in d20 terms - most SW characters I've seen have started out with a d4 in something since they only get 5 stat points to spread around. The equivalent of someone with a 3 or 4 is probably a d4 plus a specific disadvantage (like Clueless or Ugly).

Quote from: mcbobbo;679343I want to use Paizo's kingdom management rules in the same campaign as Savage Worlds's character management rules.

I think you can just take the kingdom building rules and lift them into your game.  The one thing I'd avoid would be trying to insert XP and alignment from Pathfinder into your game, because you don't need them.  If you need to create experience for doing things in your kingdom, just roll with it as if you were spending an entire session working on your kingdom.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;679939I had a browse through the PF document but couldn't see explanations of the factors that the modifiers were adding to so much. I do see the problem though: I think an SW-type system would be more likely to have a character roll periodically and get some sort of benefit from success vs. a raise, but the PF-compatible (3rd party?) system just wants you to add your Dex mod to treasury rating if you're High Finangler (or whatever)...

Assuming that's the case the probabilities aren't important and you just want to generate a comparable range of modifiers, which is I guess about -1 to +5 (for a 20) for an initial PF character, increasing somewhat as they level and gain magic doodads and stat raises. By comparison, for SW characters the d12 is more or less a hard cap (at Legendary a couple of edges can get them to about d12+2).
Probably about +1 per step above d6 is reasonable. You would have to decide what Edges affect this as well though (perhaps give the Charismatic edge the same bonus as Leadership in the PF rules.

PS:  not sure it matters here but in terms of stat equivalence I'd say a d4 was more like an 8 or so stat in d20 terms - most SW characters I've seen have started out with a d4 in something since they only get 5 stat points to spread around. The equivalent of someone with a 3 or 4 is probably a d4 plus a specific disadvantage (like Clueless or Ugly).

Thanks!  That lines up with what I was thinking as well.  After discussing it with some peers on Facebook,  we I am thinking I'll bind the top end at +6 and step down by two.  d12 = +6, d8 = +2, d4 = -2.  This makes the stats matter a bit more.

I don't think alignment will factor in, but I was planning on setting it to Neutral Good and leaving it there.

What do you think about Charisma?

Quote from: mcbobbo;681598What do you think about Charisma?

Charisma is great and I wish I had some.

I'd say Spirit fits as the matching stat fits since e.g. the Persuade and Intimidate skills are Spirit-based in SW...I'd use that as long as having it replace both Wis and Cha isn't too overpowering?

Your other option would be to use the SW Charisma modifier as the D20 Charisma modifier - more or less directly I suppose. Your +2 per step is actually on about the same scale (one Edge like Charismatic or Noble or Attractive normally gives +2 Charisma, and an Edge costs the same as a one-step stat raise).