I'm not sure this belongs on TheRPGSite, but at least one person seems interested, so please forgive me if it doesn't.

I used to love doing CGI stuff in the 1990s, except trying to render things on a Mac LCII was... fucking painful.

I kept at it with Bryce and Ray Dream Designer, Ray Dream Studio, and Carrara, until finally I gave up about 10 years ago -- I couldn't afford to keep up with the software and hardware.

Recently, I was grousing about artwork for RPG projects. It costs a lot to have decent commissioned artwork, which is only fair! Except if I'm making something that I MIGHT get $100-200 from, ever, spending $400 on artwork is kind of a losing proposition.

So it occurred to me to go look at what's available now. Last time I poked around, I found Maya free for personal use, and the interface made me curl up under my desk.


I found DAZ3D...

DAZ3D is owned by the company that now owns Carrara, with strong human figure without being hyper-focused.
Poser, for example, is really focused on human figures, so support for other props and scenes is weaker.
Bryce is great at terrain modeling and environments, but less on props and human figures.


The nice thing about DAZ3D is that it is free. Like, legitimately free -- you get a bunch of human figures and shaders, a few scenes and props. It's somewhat limited, but you can make interesting stuff.

For example, the following cost me $0 (it's one of the first things I made in 10 years, so... yeah.)

A note on figures:
Looking over DAZ3D, you will see references to Victoria 2, Michael 4, Genesis, Genesis 2, and so on.

The original figures for Poser had specific names. Victoria was a complex, unique model, more detailed than the first Poser models (I think). Then there was Michael, for males. Eventually, other models followed, and then the technology got better, thus, version numbers.

DAZ3D innovated, creating Genesis -- this was a model that was a step beyond Michael 4/Victoria 4.

What's really cool about Genesis was that it folded in ALL the other models and improved on them. It's also unisex, which means that if you get a mod (like 'elf ears'), it works whether you are making a man, a woman, or something other.

The older models still count for some things. There are UV maps (which tell the program where to put pixels from a texture map on an object -- like 'this part of the picture are lips, which go THERE') for Victoria and Michael, which is important for applying skin maps to the model properly.

Now, DAZ3D has newer, better models... Genesis 2!

My advice? Don't use them.

They are better, sure. But that means longer load times.
More importantly, Genesis 2 split genders -- there's Genesis 2 male and Genesis 2 female. Which makes a number of things harder.
For example, in Genesis, if I want to make a brother and sister, I can make one figure, tweak characteristics to how I like it, then adjust sliders to go from 'Basic Male' to 'Basic Female' or whatever.
Genesis 2, I have to copy over slider settings to a different figure.

What's REALLY annoying is stuff you buy -- hair, clothing, and so on.

With Genesis, if I buy pants, it works regardless of how I morph Genesis. Male, female, child, tall, thin, whatever.
With Genesis 2, I need to buy pants for males, pants for females. That gets really annoying with other things, like hair and so on.
Some stuff can be imported across, but it's unreliable.

Really, unless you want incredibly close up portraits that you want EXCRUCIATINGLY detailed, I'd focus on Genesis.

Which brings us to money... next slide please!

DAZ3D makes it's money from microtransactions.

I have no problem with microtransactions, done right, so long as it's not full of 'gotchas!' or tricks.

DAZ3D is pretty straightforward, and you really can spend as much as you want. They have some of their own content, plus they play middle man for content developers. It's a system I'm happy to support. Also, they have frequent sales and free stuff -- it's worth logging in every day to see if something new is offered free.

You still have to be careful -- I've been burned a few times by big sales on items for old models that just wouldn't work with newer stuff. When it comes to hair and clothes, you are very well-served by limiting yourself to Genesis-compatible stuff. Older stuff sometimes can be adapted, but it's a gamble. Plus, older stuff often doesn't look as good or lacks good settings to modify them -- new clothing often have sliders to make them look wind-blown or otherwise modify their appearance.

In one case, I bought something that sounded really good -- that turns out to now be included at no charge. I WAS able to ask them for a rebate, but better to be careful. Also, some stuff is for Carrara or Bryce, not for DAZ.


Ok, now ... my advice is to give yourself a weekly budget, whether it's $2, or $20, or $200, or whatever. When you see cool stuff you can't afford right now, hey, put it in your wishlist to poke at later.


This is my prioritization of purchases, from most valuable to least:
Premium membership
If you are going to be spending a decent amount of money, this will pay for itself very quickly and save you a lot of money. If you are only going to get one or two things, not so much.

A modeler
I got Carrara at a big discount, because I remember it having a lot of amazing shaders.
I then discovered pretty much none of those shaders apply to anything in DAZ3D. Dammit.

Still, being able to make lots of random weird shapes is going to save you a lot of money on tables, chairs, nails, and lots and lots of other random crap that would be silly to pay someone for.

DAZ3D makes a much cheaper application, Hexagon. I can't vouch for it, but if it does even a little of what Carrara does, it's a damn fine ROI.

Shaders
There are several critically important elements to CGI, and surface textures is a biggie. A good shader can make even a simple sphere look amazing. Also, modern DAZ3D shaders have 'displacement maps,' which actually deform the model (which opens up LOADS of possibilities).

Strategic purchase of shader packages can transform EVERYTHING you make, making them incredibly more detailed and cool-looking. Though you have to be careful -- in some cases, I found that the shaders I already have (particularly UberSurface, which is amazing) could do everything the new shader had.)

Related to this is texture packs. Finding good textures online is hard, particularly since image searches often turn up results you don't have rights to use, which could be a problem later.

(Although check out the site http://www.cgtextures.com/ , which has lots of free textures)

But, again, a good texture can really make surfaces go from plastic-looking crap to worn cool-looking stuff.

Modular Kits
There are packages of cool stuff that you can creatively rearrange or reskin to great effect. But you have to be careful -- sometimes what looks like 'a bunch of cool stuff' is actually a very specific set/theme, and it's impossible to actually pull out individual items. I got burned by that a few times.
For example, there's a 'dirty alley' set that was thankfully free. Because I found that while there was a broken down sofa and TV, I couldn't actually export those to use elsewhere -- they were baked into the scene.

Creative changing of parts, shaders, and so on can get a lot of mileage out of stuff. There is a free 'steampunk gun kit' that has individual pieces I've used for fusion generator parts, other weapons, space ships, etc.

Modifier Miniapps
These let you do... something. For example, there's a hat/hair widget for $9 that lets you tweak hair to fit under hoods or hats. That's very useful. There are more expensive packages that let you add realistic grass or hair to surfaces/scenes, and so on.
Again, broad application for a fixed price.

Hair and Clothes
I place these last because they are more specific. If you have a tuxedo, it's... pretty much only a tuxedo. But they add a great deal of flavor and are hard to make yourself.
You don't want picture after picture of everyone with the same hair, unless you are doing it on purpose.
I highly recommend going for $2 sale hair. Anything more expensive better be highly configurable to be worth your money.
Again, shaders can extend the use of some items. I've used a 'tank top' for everything from chain shirt to part of a futuristic spacesuit. (chain displacement map, chrome surface, respectively)

Other stuff
AFTER all of that, start roaming for cool props. Again, ideally are props with lots of parts you can swap around. I got a 'sword kit' package that had swappable blades, guards, and pommels. I can always craft my own element and mix it with the others.

A few links to examples follow, then ... I guess, open for questions.

Example of the power of shaders and textures.

Here is my 'Luy in her space suit.'

Here's what all that looks like with their default shaders.

And here are a bunch of cats. The cat model cost $7, I think, and two of the shaders I use a bunch cost about $9 each.

Painted metal cat (uses Dirt Shader, $9)


Gummy cat. (Uses plastic/gummy shader, $9)


FROSTED gummy cats! MMM! (same shader)

Glass cat (standard presets, $0)


Pink cloth cat (I think fabric shaders are part of standard, $0)


Bronze cat statue. (DirtShader)


Pink plastic cat. (Plastic/gummy shader)



Note that the cat images took maybe 15 minutes to do, start to finish. Basically, add cat model. Select surface tabs. Click a preset. Render. Most of the time was the minute or two to render and another bit to navigate over to upload it.

A basic figure before and after Bronzing (dirtshader)


More dirt shader.


A candle. This took a while, but most of the candle is nothing more than an elongated torus primitive (for the outside) and a cylinder. The trick here is using ubersurface's subsurface scattering, which gives that wonderful 'glow through' effect. That took several days to work out -- I was getting terrible results until I realized that I needed to set subsurface scale to a much lower number.

Whew.
Ok, lighting is also really important, composition, and so on... but most of that should be included.

There are also some tricky to learn bits to do fog and whatnot, still hammering on that.

Watch out for items in the store related to fog, mist, and lighting... there's a good chance you already have the stuff, although good presets might be worth the money.

Oh, final thought -- documentation is godawful. It's the hardest thing about using this application. You have to pour through spotty forum conversations and occasional wiki pages to puzzle out what stuff does.

Ok, any questions?

WOW! Thanks Will, lots of info here!

One of my pet peeves on this type of art is how obvious it is CGI.

Are there ways to "art" up the end results? Make it look more like brush strokes or paintings?

I tried taking some "poser" royalty free art and use PS to modify it, but the results still were not great IMHO.

For example, GURPS 4e uses a LOT of poser art. It's ok. But I really like the "drawn" or water paint effect on "classic" illustrations. So some of the GURPS stuff is jarring to me.

Glad to be of help! I feel great getting back into the CGI thing after so many years. I realized quite recently (like a month ago) that I've felt really pent up, creatively, for years. Because I kept trying to force myself to get into writing fiction, and... I don't think I WANT to write fiction, or make a lot of RPGs, or whatnot... I've been REALLY enjoying the webcomic thing (though I'm impatient, because, again, 10 years of faffing about)

I use paint.net, which is a free image editor thing. It doesn't have a lot of options, but I've used some of them to good effect.

From my webcomic, poster art:

Before image


After image, using the 'Artistic/Ink Sketch' option in Paint.net.

Graffiti:

Original render

After using 'Artistic/Pencil Sketch' option in Paint.net.



Photoshop has even more options, but hey, that's several hundred dollars I don't have to spend...

Another tip:
There are limits on a lot of settings. In many (possibly all?) cases you can shut OFF those limits. Sometimes I find that the range of mobility on a figure's limbs is a little too limited... bam, shut off rotation limits.

In particular, I find that Subsurface shading, which gives a wonderful 'glow through' effect on items, is often well-served by cranking it up to 200% or more. It's normally limited to 100%.

This image shows a linear point light cranked up to 400% (normally limited to 200%) and Subsurface strength shot up to 1000% (normal limit 100%).


(note that in that render, the only thing that cost any money was the beard -- 'Unshaven Beard' cost $18, but it lets you set a WIIIIIDE range of good facial hair options)

Conversely, you can CREATE limits on a lot of items. This lets you create all sorts of mechanical devices. For example, I have a 'fold up rifle' that a character in my webcomic uses. I set a bunch of rotation limits and pivots, and a linear motion limit. These are all accessed via 'parameter settings: set limit (set range of values),' and then locking all the stuff you don't want to mess with.

I've had fun making fold-up stoves, sofabeds, and so on.

I started to download DAZ the other day, but then it said that it needs to always run a program (a content manager) in the background.

Pass!

Um. You don't...?

I don't, I only run it when doing content updates.

The Content Manager is a locally running database server. My guess is that they wanted to be able to do "offline" updates, but I don't think it does it (you don't need to have a database server to do what they do).

Daz 3D started out purely as a content company producing content for Poser. After a disagreement with the owners of Poser, they created their own content delivery system. It used to be truly awful, but its gotten a lot better.

Genesis is a far more procedural model system, and its not really compatible with Poser - purposefully at first. The two companies have introduced several new features in order to break compatibility with each other. DAZ has a huge user base of their free product, but Poser I believe is a more professional product. I think Poser is the better product from a usability perspective.

A lot of content runs just fine in both.

The problem with both products is that they are "digital doll centric". Creating a scene in either (importing in various models, lighting, etc) is that much harder as a result. From my view, the best use is to do your character work in Poser and then import into another application for final rendering - but for simple scenes that have a small number of characters, just Poser works great.

Quote from: trechriron;813293One of my pet peeves on this type of art is how obvious it is CGI.

Poser and DAZ Studio users strive for realism, but my feeling is that you almost always run up against the "uncanny valley" problem.

I take an opposite view on that for a lot of art - why not go the Shrek route -  be purposefully unrealistic, and then your characters remain characters and not imitations. Or consider art like in the "Captain Stern" part of the Heavy Metal movie. Not realistic, but you can tell an interesting and adult story anyway.

Poser has a number of non realistic render options worth checking out. You can also change shaders and lighting and achieve some interesting results.

I'd be curious to hear more about why you prefer Poser over DAZ3D, myself.

(I'm going to pick up Poser 10, because hey, why not, $70 isn't going to break the bank and even if I don't like it Poser has a bunch of free stuff, too)

Quote from: Will;813374I'd be curious to hear more about why you prefer Poser over DAZ3D, myself.

DAZ Studio gets and better and better with each release. It is really quite a good tool for free. Its earliest versions were terrible but 4.x is good.

Poser I like better for the following reasons:

- Generally better scene layout (for what they are)
- Lots of very good third party add-ons
- Upgrades add more stability
- PoserFusion Extensibility (how Poser integrates with Vue, Shade, and with tools like MAX is very powerful)
- Poser doesn't force you into a particular content strategy*
- Better "out of the box" renderer**
- Good (but not perfect) backwards compatibility for content

* DAZ is all about content strategy; controlling where you get it (from them), and how you store it and manage it
** But both can work with external renderers though

DS is a really good free tool. Really good. Poser costs money, but its a better overall product for getting the job done.

DS provides excellent value for free but its there to get you to spend your money on expensive content; that's the philosophy behind its development strategy.

Any external renderers you recommend?

Wait, Poser 10 has a $9 'extended download agreement,' so that I will be permitted to re-download the file for up to 2 years... ... you mean otherwise I can't? And after 2 years, I'm boned?

...

REALLY?

Quote from: Will;813437Any external renderers you recommend?

There are external renderers that extend these tools, then there is importing into another application.

Two top ones for Poser / DS are Reality and LuxRender. I believe they both use the same underlying engine. Ive used Reality a little, and it produces some good results.

My company is also selling FluidRay which is a real time renderer. Right now we are talking with them about supporting Poser / DS, but Fluidray is really more appropriate for 3D architecture or design (SketchUp, Rhino 3D, etc).

My personal favorite is importing Poser scenes into e-on software's Vue using PoserFusion. PoserFusion is a "hosting" solution rather than a direct import. You can actually import animated Poser characters and then apply Vue's animation on top of that. For example - you could do a looped cycle of a bird flapping its wings in Poser, then move it around the screen in Vue using Vue's animation system. With PoserFusion, you can go back, re-open your Poser file, change it, and have the updates reflected in the Vue scene.

Quote from: Will;813437Wait, Poser 10 has a $9 'extended download agreement,' so that I will be permitted to re-download the file for up to 2 years... ... you mean otherwise I can't? And after 2 years, I'm boned?

Yeah - I hate that too. Its a Smith Micro thing. I get it though. There is about 3-4 GB now of stuff in Poser.  Every time someone wanted to get a redownload, they had to contact SM and engage technical support (making this freely downloadable would be a nightmare). That's a $20-$30 cost to fulfill a request of someone who didn't back up their files like they should have.