This is my stab at explaining RPGs.

1. What is an rpg?

To begin with a roleplaying game isn't really all that complicated in essense, though it can be complex in practice Further more, while some consider them a recent thing, in all truth RPGs are incredibly old, dating back many tens of thousands of years ago when our ancestors first began to pretend to be something they are not.

The first RPGs were informal and impromptu. You played the warrior, or wolf, or hawk as you saw the warrior, or the wolf, or the hawk. You played "Rain" as you saw "Rain" behaving. Everybody knew what rain was, everybody knew how rain acted, the rules for playing rain could be learned through observation and practice.

Even when life and society and environment became more intricate, it remained simple to pick up the essence of the role by observation. However, a cultures changed ---especially in the west---old knowledge was lost, so roleplaying in old mileus took on a fictional cast instead of being relatively realistic. (Yes, a few clothe yard shafts fired from English longbows were found piercing horses and armor, but keep in mind that we're talking about cheap chain, and tens of thousands of shorts. Super weapons are not unique to the Japanese.)

In addition, different people understood matters differently, how euipment was seen to act and people seen to be having, thus was born rules lawyering and system disputes on an amature basis. Yet, as long as it remain rather informal and not taken at all seriously, then things were all okay.

now I expect at this time you're all wondering, what the gosh dark heck isa roleplaying game?

To sum up... No, would leave to much uncovered. To summarize:

A roleplaying game is where you play somebody else, using a system of guidelines that direct and limit what you can do, very often, but not always, in an imaginary milieu were your role lives and participates in events.

Given all that are their RPGs that aren't really RPGs? Yes, and we'll deal with those, starting with the First, Dungeons & Dragons.

Nice and pretentious sounding. Seems like a good start for this kind of thing.

Cavemen Dice only had two sides! D02 Knew No Limit!

The only classes for Cavemen were Rain and Fire! You gained XP by bathing or creating fire!

Quote from: Monster Manuel;622778Nice and pretentious sounding. Seems like a good start for this kind of thing.

Evil me, I will not descend to your level of education, buy insist on you makng an effort to improve. How dare I assume there are people out there with functioning mentalities.

Since you are reluctant to engage in a meaninglful dialogue, but instead ketch ad moan about how unfair a good education is, I will know to disregard your witless bleating.

Quote from: mythusmage;622814Evil me, I will not descend to your level of education, buy insist on you makng an effort to improve. How dare I assume there are people out there with functioning mentalities.

Since you are reluctant to engage in a meaninglful dialogue, but instead ketch ad moan about how unfair a good education is, I will know to disregard your witless bleating.

Keep up the good work.

You offer nothing of value. So why should I listen?

Though I was snarky, I think the fact that your OP comes off as pretentious is of use, if you want anyone to give a damn.

Also, calling what cave men did roleplaying is a stretch.

I'll try to channel English teachers of the past on this one.

Quote from: mythusmage;622752To begin with a roleplaying game isn't really all that complicated in essense, though it can be complex in practice Further more, while some consider them a recent thing, in all truth RPGs are incredibly old, dating back many tens of thousands of years ago when our ancestors first began to pretend to be something they are not.

Not bad.  But, the tone is pretentious.  Put the right accent behind voicing these words and you'd half the audience thinking you're a kind of a prick.

QuoteThe first RPGs were informal and impromptu. You played the warrior, or wolf, or hawk as you saw the warrior, or the wolf, or the hawk. You played "Rain" as you saw "Rain" behaving. Everybody knew what rain was, everybody knew how rain acted, the rules for playing rain could be learned through observation and practice.

Okay...  Who's ass are you pulling this stuff from?  It started out well enough, but I'm left wondering as to what context I'm missing for reference to what these sentences are about.

QuoteEven when life and society and environment became more intricate, it remained simple to pick up the essence of the role by observation. However, a cultures changed ---especially in the west---old knowledge was lost, so roleplaying in old mileus took on a fictional cast instead of being relatively realistic. (Yes, a few clothe yard shafts fired from English longbows were found piercing horses and armor, but keep in mind that we're talking about cheap chain, and tens of thousands of shorts. Super weapons are not unique to the Japanese.)

Where the hell were you going with this paragraph?  It's like it wandered into the kitchen, completely forgot why it walked in there, then it got distracted by the alarm on the clothes dryer, and wandered off again.

QuoteIn addition, different people understood matters differently, how euipment was seen to act and people seen to be having, thus was born rules lawyering and system disputes on an amature basis. Yet, as long as it remain rather informal and not taken at all seriously, then things were all okay.

If I was a math teacher, I'd be asking to not only show your work, but all the individual steps.  These are some serious jumps being made for these statements.  This kind of stuff on a white paper would have reference numbers that tie into footnotes and then other papers to read up on.

Quotenow I expect at this time you're all wondering, what the gosh dark heck isa roleplaying game?

Among other things...

QuoteTo sum up... No, would leave to much uncovered. To summarize:

A roleplaying game is where you play somebody else, using a system of guidelines that direct and limit what you can do, very often, but not always, in an imaginary milieu were your role lives and participates in events.

This should be of been the first thing you lead with.  Get that thesis statement out there first, so the audience knows where to hang the decorations.

Why write several lines of criticism, when really only one line of criticism is neccesary:
The OP starts early to confuse roleplaying with Roleplaying Games.
(One may comment on that "cavemen" actually thought they became the being at the time, but then, that's immersion for yah. One might claim that "cavemen" really just were mimic'ing rather than roleplaying, but at that time, there may not have been any difference between the two.)

Personally, i don't mind pretentiousness, as long as the facts at least are correct enough.

Shorter Bubba Brown and  Catelf, "You disagree with me, so you're evil. And how dare you use big words?"

Quote from: mythusmage;623462Shorter Bubba Brown and  Catelf, "You disagree with me, so you're evil. And how dare you use big words?"

I don't think that's the criticism they're making.
Your original argument is nonsense.
You don't know anything about cavemen.
You are not a cultural anthropologist.

I see nothing of merit here.

//Panjumanju

2. When is an RPG not an RPG?

When it's not designed as an RPG.

As an example let us take Dungeons & Dragons circa 1973 through 1974. The box cover said something like "A medieval miniatures game of man to man combat. As people discovered as they played, you could role play, but that's. not what the game was for. As I recall, it was the Late Glenn Blacow of New York City who first pointed out in an NYC APA that what we were doing was playing roles. This was picked up by Alarums & Excursions in California (think hard copy bulletin board c 1970s) and spread from their.

Indeed, the only game I recall from those days where roleplaying was specifically incorporated was En Garde by GDW, and that was basic indeed.

What did you do in En Garde? You played one of the king's musketeers, going off on campaign against the enemies of France (very abstract combat), and on leave you went carousing and acted like a besotted loon.

The first TSR Inc. game I recall that incorporated roleplaying as part of the game was Empire of the Petal Throne, and that started with the player selling off his character's boat and gear for 3d6x10 gold, and renegotiating meant you had to take the second roll. Bargaining could get heated.

Games such as Tunnels & Trolls, Metamorphosis Alpha, Traveller, and Chivalry and Sorcery were basic miniatures games, where you could play a role, but no real rules for roleplaying were included. Near as I can recall, the very first RPG written as as an RPG was Ars Magica, for it included guidelines for roleplaying.

I expect there have been more since then, but the end of this part of the story is that rules were not written for roleplaying in a roleplaying game until late in the industry.

Quote from: Panjumanju;623466I don't think that's the criticism they're making.
Your original argument is nonsense.
You don't know anything about cavemen.
You are not a cultural anthropologist.

I think there is a lot to be gained about the discussion of what constitutes a roleplaying game, but, not if this is the starting point. You can use all the big words you like, it does not look like it will help you. "Pretend = roleplaying" is a juvenile, shallow and unsupported thesis.

I see nothing of merit here.

//Panjumanju

"Let's pretend aint proper role playing."

Bull shit. Plain, ordinary, everyday bull shit. You want RPGs to be something important, something special. If it's only "let's pretend" how can it be something special? Who the fuck says it has to be special?  You, boy have an exaggerated sense of your own importance.

All an RPG needs to be is entertaining, and that's it.

As for how I compose my essays. I don't give a shit what some persnickity little troll says how it's supposed to start off, I compose it my way, and if you don't like it, who the fuck's forcing you to read it? I swear, some of you are fussier than a cat with an anal probe.

And BTW, you want to convince somebody to do it another way, stop bitching at him.

Quote from: mythusmage;623462Shorter Bubba Brown and  Catelf, "You disagree with me, so you're evil. And how dare you use big words?"

Ok, now when that is over and done, i actually would like to see where you are going with this, especially since you have added that D&D isn't really an rpg ....

I assume you're aware that a lot do not share that view ...
I mean, i consider to D&D to be (utter) rubbish in several ways, but i still count it as an rpg ....

Quote from: mythusmage;6234672. When is an RPG not an RPG?

When it's not designed as an RPG.

As an example let us take Dungeons & Dragons circa 1973 through 1974. The box cover said something like "A medieval miniatures game of man to man combat. As people discovered as they played, you could role play, but that's. not what the game was for. As I recall, it was the Late Glenn Blacow of New York City who first pointed out in an NYC APA that what we were doing was playing roles. This was picked up by Alarums & Excursions in California (think hard copy bulletin board c 1970s) and spread from their.

Near as I can recall, the very first RPG written as as an RPG was Ars Magica, for it included guidelines for roleplaying.

Interesting point indeed ....
I think it is a good point, too.
Perhaps not entirely solid (see the bolded), but a good one, still.

However, they possibly weren't called Roleplaying Games because ... well, face it, the concept "roleplaying game" did not exist at the time.
The closest they obviously knew of, were miniatures.